[00:00:00] Wayne Schwass: Hello and welcome to the Thrive Podcast series. I'm your host, Wayne Schwass. Thrive is Monash Health's employee mental health and wellbeing program created for our people by our people. Our bespoke program explores the themes of validating that working in healthcare is uniquely challenging, normalising the conversation about mental health, encouraging pause for rest, reflection and regeneration, and creating safe spaces that empower our people to speak up.
[00:00:32] In this series, we talk with some of our people about what this means for them through storytelling and their shared experiences in the hope that that may be helpful to others. In today's episode, I sit down with Kumail Jaffry, General Surgery, Senior Resident, to discuss how courage and confidence are essential elements in initiating and leading conversations about mental health and wellbeing.
[00:00:55] I hope you enjoy the episode. Kumail, courage and confidence is the topic for discussion today. They're two really important traits that you have used to navigate your journey into healthcare, uh, but also your journey in life considering that you started your journey in Afghanistan and you now reside in Australia.
[00:01:17] So can you just talk to us from a personal perspective about those two traits for you?
[00:01:22] Kumail Jaffry: Yeah, I think Wayne, you're, you're absolutely right, they've. Courage, confidence have been, you know, crucial in my journey all the way, starting from Afghanistan, traveling through different countries, and then even coming to Australia, I found that it's, it was crucial.
[00:01:36] It was important to me, I guess, you know, when, when I was young, it may have been more in my parents and my, my family, that they de, they took that decision and had that courage to really. You know, fly away to, uh, somewhere where there's lots of opportunity and uh, and which allows us to thrive. And as I was kind of coming to Australia, it became important to me.
[00:02:02] You know, I started off speaking no English whatsoever, but I knew one thing that I wanted to save life in the future. So that was, uh, the confidence there. And I always, I, I was told, Hey, if you wanna become a doctor, you gotta get 99%, and even then you've got no chance. So I, I, I think I, I, I probably found that courage, um, to kind of keep me going, uh, in this and, uh, get to where
[00:02:29] Wayne Schwass: I am today.
[00:02:29] Yeah. Clearly, uh, given some of the challenges that you've overcome, non-English speaking, different culture, different country. Different experiences. So that's a testament to your ability to be, uh, courageous and confident in all aspects if we bring it into a professional healthcare environment. Why do you think that courage is such a critical factor when wanting to initiate conversations about mental health and wellbeing?
[00:02:55] Kumail Jaffry: Yeah. Look, Wayne, I, I think courage is the foundation of any conversation, and it's more important around mental health. Um, it's important in healthcare. Where the culture has traditionally been just pushing through, uh, you know, staying, staying tough, not showing weakness, and, uh, that's even more amplified in my field in, in surgery.
[00:03:16] But I'm kind, I'm keen to bring that into, you know, mental health. But you know, when, when we. Stay, try to stay tough, you know, traditionally, and keep pushing through. The truth is there's the emotional load behind it. They, they keep building up. Uh, we are, we're not robots when, uh, I'm sure you would agree with that.
[00:03:36] We experience, you know, various, uh, stress, various trauma. Um, so I guess courage in this space probably means, you know, allowing to be human. In an environment that doesn't always give you that permission to do that. I
[00:03:52] Wayne Schwass: really love your, your comment about being human because at the end of the day. Your colleagues and yourself are human beings.
[00:04:00] Uh, yes, you have really important roles and you're fulfilling, uh, really important responsibilities, but to acknowledge the fact that you too carry emotional load and emotional burden is really important. So, to extend on your first answer, what steps could somebody take in order to build their confidence when leading a mental health conversation with a colleague, team member or manager, or even outside of work with a family member or friend?
[00:04:25] Kumail Jaffry: I, I think that's a great question. Uh, Wayne, it's, uh, you know, confidence just doesn't come overnight. It's, it's, it's something you build, just like any clinical skills. Uh, and for me, the first step was kind of learning to listen without the urge to fix. When sometimes when we notice people are struggling, we kind of panic.
[00:04:45] It's, it's normal to panic and quickly come up with a solution. Oh gosh, what should I say? What if I make it worse? But I think in most cases, what people actually want is. Is isn't a solution, it's, it's just to feel heard and to be listened to. So I, I, I've, I've learned this throughout my, you know, medical journey.
[00:05:06] Uh, medicine teaches you a lot when, believe or not. Um, but I think, um, we, we do have, uh, different phrases, uh, that we have got in our back pocket. Uh, I use simple phrases to my medical students or junior medical staff. You know, how are you doing? You know, so it is okay if you don't wanna talk about it, but I'm here, you know, you don't need perfect words.
[00:05:30] Um,
[00:05:31] Wayne Schwass: just, just be real. How can leaders create that type of environment that encourages open and supportive mental health conversations with other people?
[00:05:40] Kumail Jaffry: I think when it comes to leaders, it's, it's, it becomes even more crucial. I, I've always thought leaders set the tone. For the whole team. Um, you know, and if they show that they value wellbeing, not just productivity, it gives permission to everyone else to prior to prioritise their mental health.
[00:06:03] At my work at Monash Health, I've been fortunate enough to work with people. And leaders who do this quite well. Um, I remember one of our consultants in a, in a debrief, um, brought up his own, um, his own story, his own kind of background. And, um, yeah, I found that to be kind of a door opener, uh, allowing everyone else to kind of feel safe, um, to share their story.
[00:06:32] Yeah.
[00:06:32] Wayne Schwass: So what would be some effective phrases or approaches. For people to begin a conversation about mental health when you might might be concerned about a particular individual.
[00:06:45] Kumail Jaffry: I think sometimes it's, it's just about showing someone you know, that you've, you've noticed when someone's struggling, they feel they might already feel invisible or sometimes even ashamed.
[00:06:57] So saying, you know, things that I said earlier, you know, you haven't, you haven't seen like yourself, do you want to chat about it can be quite powerful. Um, and as I said, having things in the back pocket. Gentle invitations. You've, you've had a few rough late shifts or, you know, how are you holding up? Um, these things can really help.
[00:07:19] And I think if, if there are times where things are uncertain, it's, I've, I've said it before, you know, you can't, you can say that, you know, you don't know whether this is the right time to someone, but you just wanna check in. Uh, and that honesty. Makes people feel, feel safe.
[00:07:40] Wayne Schwass: If somebody was to do that and the person that you extended that invitation to wasn't ready to answer that question, what would your response to that be?
[00:07:50] Kumail Jaffry: Good point, Wayne. I think time, time is important. You know, you can sometimes wait, but have a close eye on your loved ones. Um, and time can heal. It's a, it's a good healer. Um. Then repetition is as important. So I guess if it's not the right time for someone to answer your question, um, it's, you know, you can always come back to it.
[00:08:14] There's always another meeting. There's always another catch up.
[00:08:17] Wayne Schwass: What did you mean by the repetition of it is also important?
[00:08:21] Kumail Jaffry: There are timeframes and, you know, people have different mindsets of different time at different timing. You know, at one, at one stage they may not be able to. You know, share their, um, uh, story or they may not be feeling psychological, safe terminology.
[00:08:38] We've come across many times. Um, uh, but other times they, they may, so I think it's, it's as important to create that environment for people, you know, set up another time, catch
[00:08:51] Wayne Schwass: up with them again. How can somebody overcome Kumail, the fear of saying the wrong thing or being met with resistance? When they're trying to initiate a conversation around mental health with somebody that they might work with and be concerned about.
[00:09:04] I, I think it's
[00:09:05] Kumail Jaffry: important we break that question down. Uh, let's talk about fear. You know, fear is, is real. I still feel it sometimes, uh, but I kind of remind myself that, um, uh, you know, silence sometimes can, can have. Can have more, you know, strength, uh, than words ever can. So, you know, saying nothing, um, for fear of saying the wrong thing can unintentionally signal that you, you know, you kind of don't care.
[00:09:34] Wayne Schwass: Mm.
[00:09:35] Kumail Jaffry: I've got an interesting story that I want to share, uh, with, with you and, and everyone listening on the, um, on the podcast. I think, um. We, we, I grew up in Mildura and there was a time that we were traveling to Adelaide, uh, and on the way we had, you know, everyone on board, family and a, a nice hot, traditional tea.
[00:09:56] Unfortunately, my younger brother dropped a boiling water that we used for the WA tea, um, onto his leg, onto his legs and, and lap. Uh, he had a major burns. Um, and at that time we were in this rural, rural, you know, town on the way to Adela and I was the only one who could speak English. I said, you know, we quickly found this hospital we went to, um, the doctors really wanted to give.
[00:10:26] My brother some analgesia to, you know, he was in agony, he was in pain. But the way they worded their, uh, their, their, their help was, Hey, do you want some drugs? And, uh, at that time, to US, drugs meant drugs. So we said, no. What, what they meant was, uh, analgesia. So I feel like, you know, fear. Communication, you know, close communication.
[00:10:58] And when it, where I work in at, at Monash Health, it's quite multicultural. We, we get people from, you know, all kind of background, um, you know, coming different languages every day. Um, uh, I think, um, the, the concept of fear and overcoming that too. To have a, um, a closed conversation, avoiding any miscommunication, uh, becomes even more crucial.
[00:11:25] Wayne Schwass: I've got a couple more questions for you, Kumail. Importantly, what role does, and this is a phrase that we are hearing a lot of now, not only across Monash Health, but. All businesses around the country. And that is the role of psychological safety and the role that that plays in empowering individuals and teams to have these important conversations in the workplace.
[00:11:45] Kumail Jaffry: It's important, um, it's, uh, like a bedrock. Um, without it, I think none of these that we have been talking about will really make sense or will work in any, uh, workplace. I think if they, if someone feels like they're being judged. Punished or excluded, et cetera, uh, for being honest, they'll stay silent, uh, and kind of suffer alone.
[00:12:09] Wayne Schwass: I love the bedrock of wellbeing conversations is psychological safety. I think that that is, uh, such a great statement that in order to have these type of conversations and to create the environments that allow people to be able to talk openly and honestly without fear or stigma. Psychologists, psychological safety is the bedrock of all of that.
[00:12:32] So I think that's a great call and phrase. Uh, Kumail, I'm not sure if that was deliberate, but I love it. I, uh, will adopt it and use that when I'm having these type of conversations. Two quick final questions, and they're both without notice. If today was your first day walking into Monash Health, what advice would you give yourself?
[00:12:52] Be yourself. Great answer.
[00:12:56] Kumail Jaffry: And what does that mean? I think we, we all come with a, with a vision. Um, we sometimes, when looking back at the reality of life and the re you know, the, the meaning behind it, um, everyone's got a vision. So I guess, you know, coming on my day when I would tell myself, Hey, chase your dreams.
[00:13:19] Uh, go for your vision.
[00:13:21] Wayne Schwass: Yeah. And be you. Great answer. Final question. What is the best thing about
[00:13:28] Kumail Jaffry: working for Monash
[00:13:28] Wayne Schwass: Health?
[00:13:29] Kumail Jaffry: The multicultural, uh, community just stands out straight away. Wayne. There's a reason why I'm not at, uh, other metropolitan hospitals. Um, I'm treating the same people and the patients that I, that I knew from back overseas, we lived on the same street.
[00:13:50] You, you won't believe this Wayne, but. People that I come across that know my grand, grand grandparents in a completely different country across the ocean. It's, uh, it's amazing. And I think the, the people that we work with at Monash, um, the support that we get from our, um, the supportive environment, the family-like environment is, is what make Monash health stand out.
[00:14:17] Wayne Schwass: It's a great way to finish a conversation. Uh. Thank you for being you. It's a, it's a inspiring story considering where you've come from, what you've overcome and what you're doing now. And, uh, it's been an absolute pleasure to spend a little bit of time exploring the topic of courage and confidence. Two things that you've consistently used to get where you are today.
[00:14:39] And, uh, we thank you for it and we wish you well, and we look forward to crossing paths with you at some point in any of the corridors around Monash Health. Kumail, thank you. Thank you again Wayne. And, uh, thanks to our, uh, lovely listeners at Monash. Hey, thanks for listening. We hope that you found something in this episode that helps you reflect on your mental health and wellbeing, and importantly, our culture of care for our people here at Monash Health.
[00:15:02] Join us for our next episode where we explore the role of language and support in creating an environment where employees can feel comfortable to raise their mental health and wellbeing needs. We'll look forward to seeing you again soon.
