Wayne: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to the Thrive Podcast series. I'm your host, Wayne Schwass. Thrive is Monash Health's employee mental health and wellbeing program created for our people by our people. Our bespoke program explores the themes of validating that working in healthcare is uniquely challenging. Normalising the conversation about mental health, encouraging pause for rest, reflection and regeneration, and creating safe spaces that empower our people to speak up.
In this series, we talk with some of our people about what this means for them through storytelling and their shared experiences in the hope that that may be helpful to others. In today's episode, I sit down with Steven Jensen, nurse manager with the Medical Infusion Unit to discuss the important role of vulnerability and acceptance in supporting individual and team wellbeing.
I hope you enjoy the episode. What role does vulnerability play in your leadership style, Steven? [00:01:00]
Stephen: I think, uh, since I've become, uh. A nursing leader over the last, uh, 10 years or so. Vulnerability is something that I've definitely, uh, lent into, um, and, and developed. I think when I was a, um, a younger nurse, uh, probably wasn't something that, you know, I was keen to sort of explore as much, but since I've looked after a lot of young junior nurses, it's been, um, something that I've really had to lean into.
I think it's, um. It, it shows that you're a bit more authentic and that you don't have to be perfect in your day-to-day lives or, or, or, or your work life. Um, helps build trust with your team, shows that you are, you know, open to the emotions that come with the, the challenges of, of being a nurse. Um, and just shows that you're willing to learn and, and listen from your staff, uh, and, and, and.
Be with them in that they don't have to go through the [00:02:00] difficulties alone.
Wayne: Have you had to develop vulnerability as a skill? And if so, how?
Stephen: As I mentioned, it wasn't something until I got a little bit older that I was, uh, really prepared to, to work on and focus in on. Um, and it's not something that comes easily, but I think it, as I've gotten older, it has come slightly more naturally.
Wayne: So, uh. Team of about 40 nurses. How do you build trust and acceptance in our team?
Stephen: Um, I think shared experiences, um, you know, being open to, to show that you are, um, you, you've gone through similar things to, to what they have, not just sharing sort of. Rehearse lines that you can learn in, uh, meetings and, and, uh, and courses, but actually, you know, showing your own struggles that you've had, um, how you've had that same self-doubt that a lot of junior nurses have [00:03:00] had at any time in their career.
Um, I think there is a fine line with that as well. Uh, being able to, being able to listen and be engaged and be present with their experience and their story. Making sure that they feel heard, that they feel validated. Not just making it about your own story, but just being able to make it clear that their struggle isn't a personal failure and it's, you know, something that we've all gone through and something I've gone through as well.
Wayne: So how do you balance sharing your own personal experiences or professional experiences while ensuring that you're not overshadowing a team member's? Situation or experience that they're going through as well.
Stephen: You know, not shifting the focus too heavily onto yourself, but showing them that they're not alone.
Making sure that you are, uh, normalising, you know, what they're feeling, accepting what they're feeling, um, you know, staying present in their experience. Making sure that they feel validated, [00:04:00] but. Also reassuring them that, uh, others of us have experienced similar things as well in our own personal and, and professional lives.
Do
Wayne: you think that vulnerability allows you as a leader and a team member to show a human side?
Stephen: Yeah, I think vulnerability kind of breaks down some of those barriers that you might have with your, with your staff and with your team. You know, being able to share the right amount of experience with different people, you know, learning who your team are as, as, as humans, uh, and, and, and showing them that you're a human too.
I think, uh. Various different levels of, of leadership and management. Um, you can somewhat dehumanise people and see them as a, you know, a person in an office or a person on a screen. But we're all, we're all humans. We've all had, uh, similar experiences and shared experiences and, you know, being able to share those with your team and making them, making them [00:05:00] realise that you're a human, helps them come to you with their problems as well.
Wayne: I get a sense that there's been a. Somewhat of a transformation in you individually, but also as a leader. Because you said earlier in one of your other answers that, um, you were, you were reluctant to lean into vulnerability when you were younger, but clearly that's something that you've embraced now as a le a leader, perhaps a bit older, um, more mature, more life experiences.
What was the reluctance when you were younger to lean into vulnerability?
Stephen: It's a tricky question, Wayne, and I think there's a lot of, a lot of cliche answers there that, you know, you're a, um. You're a, a, a a guy growing up in, uh, in New Zealand and, you know, moving over to Australia in my thirties. And I guess there's a lot of just cultural norms around how that looks and, and, and who you are and who, who, who, who you think you are supposed to be.
Um, but finding the right people in your life. Um, finding the right, surrounding yourself with the right friends and family, uh, and, and [00:06:00] finding the right jobs can certainly help move you away from what. Society or, or, or, or what you, you previously has thought you should be a, as I've gotten older and, uh, you know, got married and had a daughter, uh, certainly softened some of the edges that, um, that were there and certainly taught me a lot of, a lot more patience, uh, and, and acceptance of different people.
And with that, I think the, the vulnerability, uh. It allows you to have those life experiences to, you know, to see that other people have got a lot going on too, and, and, and, you know, being, being with them, being equal with them, and, um, you know, showing that you've got, you know, similar, similar things happening.
Wayne: Yeah, I like the softening, um, uh, a young [00:07:00] daughter, uh, a wife, your. Managing a team of 40 nurses, I think that allows you to be that engaging, trustworthy leader. Can you share an example of a time when vulnerability helps strengthen relationships or improved outcomes within a workplace environment?
Stephen: I've got, uh, a number of young and, and junior grad nurses that, um.
Have their own different struggles. There's a lot of, a lot going on early in your nursing career, a lot of imposter syndrome, um, and being able to, um, you know, relate with, uh, with some of them on, on that more human level, be a bit more engaged with them on a, you know, not just on what's happening at work, but what's happening outside of work.
You know, I, I, I had a, a period in my nursing career, um, going back a few [00:08:00] years where, um. It was actually in the middle of Covid where I, I needed to take some, um, emergency leave to, to get back to New Zealand. Um, 'cause my, my dad was suddenly unwell. And, uh, my boss at that time was so understanding, so accepting, uh, able to provide everything I needed.
And the, the learnings I took out of that to make. Life so much easier at a such a stressful time that I just didn't have to worry about work and the job when I came back to it, however long it was gonna be. Um, you know, with quarantine and things that we had to do at, at that time. Um, yeah, my boss just took all of that stress away and.
Going forward with that experience from, from a few years ago into my own management, um, career, my own leadership, um, you know, being able to lean on that, remember those feelings and use that, adapt that to different situations with nurses that I have [00:09:00] now, knowing that little things that I can do for them.
And at what, what might seem such a stressful ask to come to your boss and say, I need whatever I need, um, this done tomorrow, or I need x amount of time off. But just being able to support them and have those conversations with them, knowing the difference that that can make. For what's going on outside of work.
Wayne: I think it's a great example of the influence, uh, a leader had on you personally, uh, and the impact that had on you professionally. So that's something that you take forward and you're applying that, which I think is just fantastic. And it shows the impact of, uh, leaders who are willing to support people going through difficult times.
And as a leader, how do you manage supporting your team while balancing your own needs, though?
Stephen: Yeah, that's a really good question and maybe something that I, um, I'm not always amazing at. And, uh, you know, I'm, I'm probably happy to admit that I'm not, um, you know, I'm, I'm fairly [00:10:00] good, you know, both at work and outside of work at, uh, looking after others and, and, um, you know, providing, um, help and reassurance and, and, and, and care for others.
Um. But not as quickly able to turn that back on myself. Something I have very good insight into. Um, but it doesn't mean that I'm good at, you know, resolving that issue. Um, I, I know, I know I inherited that trait from my father. Um, he was, uh, amazing. You could come to him with, with any problem and he'd, and he'd fix it.
Um, but I, I know that he, uh, often struggled with, with his own, with his own bits and pieces, and I've. I guess I've carried that, that on, but I, I do have good insight into that. I, I know the things that I need to do to keep myself well and healthy, you know, getting to the gym, um, exercise, play a bit of cricket in the summer, surround myself with the right people, you know, seeing friends outside of work.
[00:11:00] I have a, uh, I'm, I'm in a quite a lucky position that while, while I have good nursing friends, I have. A good circle of friends that are, are non-healthcare based as well, so I'm able to kind of, you know. Switch off part of that sort of thing and, and, and, and have a, a separate life away from work too.
Finding that balance is, is really hard. Um, and then I've got my wife and, and daughter as well who, you know, they make it so easy to, to come home and, um, and want to see them and spend time with them.
Wayne: When you are talking with younger team members, are you sharing some of the experiences and the benefits of having.
Non-healthcare networks and friendships or relationships outside of work to help switch off find balance?
Stephen: Yeah, there has been some conversations I've had, uh, with people who I know are, have, you know, have come to me with, with different struggles and um, and things at work and I [00:12:00] do always need to make sure that I've got that right support happening outside of work because.
They're, they're only here for, you know, eight hours a day and, and there's a lot more time outside of work. So we can do what we can to support them, you know, while they're here and, and, and we can do a lot. But making sure that they're set up before they come to work, when they go home from work, that's the bigger part of their life.
And if they haven't got the right supports, they haven't got the right people around them, they're not gonna be able to, to come to work and, and provide. You know, the, the care that they need to provide here as well. It's not always an easy thing. Nurses tend to, um, you know, drift toward other nurses or other, other people in healthcare.
Um, you know, both, uh, you know, professionally and, and personally. My wife is also a nurse, so I'm, I'm, I'm guilty of that too. But I think, you know, even just, just being able to have something, whether or not that's a, a sport or, or a. [00:13:00] A, a hobby that you, you are mixing with people that aren't just, uh, in healthcare as well.
'cause it can get quite circular, those conversations and those thoughts and then it can get tricky to break away from that.
Wayne: If today was your first day walking into Monash Health with your nursing career experience behind you, what would you say to that younger version of yourself today as you're about to begin your nursing journey?
Stephen: I think, um, you know, I, I look at who I was maybe when I was doing my nursing training, especially bef, you know, before I had that first grad job. And, uh, I think it was, I, I, I had to really tell myself to. To, to be genuine, to be authentic, um, to be who I was when I was, uh, you know, starting off in some clinical placements and things, and not to try and be what I thought a nurse should be.
Um, because nurses are, that, they're everybody. They're, they're, they're who we all are anyway. And that [00:14:00] was quite a challenge for myself to, to, to push that on myself. And, and, you know, I guess I'm naturally a bit more introverted, which, you know, sometimes doesn't line up with things, but. Um, so to actually push that outta myself and, and, and walk into, to those classes and those clinical placements and be myself, I think was, was hugely important.
Uh, so, and, and I'm quite proud of being able to have done that and, and succeed in that and provide a slightly different type of care and, and, and, you know, personal touch that, that others might not have. Um, so I think if I was to look back, it would be, you know, reaffirming that that was. The right thing to do, um, but also just.
Be a bit more patient with myself. Um, nothing needs to be rushed. You know, I came to nursing, um, a few years later. I was sort of into, into my mid twenties by the time I got to it. [00:15:00] And, you know, just take, take my time. Um, build those relationships. And maintain those relationships too. I think something in the last few years I've, I've definitely worked a lot harder on maintaining some really good relationships that I've made through nursing.
Once you leave a job, it's always hard to, um, to continue those relationships sometimes that you think, think are really, really strong when you're working with those people. Those people, but those are the people that, you know, really support you through. The rest of your lives as well.
Wayne: Great answer. Sorry to put you on the spot.
Final question. What advice would you offer other leaders or or colleagues or employees of the organisation that might be reluctant to lean into vulnerability?
Stephen: I think just doing little things. You don't have to just come to work one day and be a whole new person. That's not gonna be authentic. People aren't gonna believe that.
Um, so just. Uh, you, you [00:16:00] don't always have to be presenting yourself as this, you know, strong leader who knows all the answers. You, you can acknowledge that there are, are challenges. Um, you can, you know, work alongside those challenges with your team. You don't have to be the one that's always, always providing those answers.
Um, and just, just little things asking people how they are not. Not because you know that they're struggling, because you might be surprised that the people that you don't realise are struggling are having a little tough time. And just that real simple, you know, how are you doing? But making it genuine as well, not just.
You know, it's a busy morning and you know, everyone's a bit under the caution, and that's a good time to go and say, oh, how are you doing today? Oh, it's busy. Yeah, because I don't think that really achieves anything. Doing it. On good days when people are happy, you, you might get a different answer. And just understanding that working alongside people, accepting the vulnerability, it doesn't mean that you lose [00:17:00] anything from a leadership or an authority perspective.
You might find that it does the opposite. People are more likely to come to you with, with things, good things and bad things, more likely to trust you when, when there are difficult times and, and, and engage, um, a little bit more with, with what we're trying to do.
Wayne: Great advice, great answer. Uh, appreciate the conversation.
Just wanna say thank you, Steven, for being you. It's been a great chat. We really appreciate your contribution.
Stephen: Thanks, Wayne. Uh, it's been good.
Wayne: Hey, thanks for listening. We hope that you found something in this episode that helps you reflect on your own mental health and wellbeing, and importantly, our culture of care for our people here at Monash Health.
You can join us for our next episode where we explore the value of listening to understand, and how this skill can help us navigate our way through challenging times. We look forward to seeing you again soon.
