[00:00:00] Wayne: Hello and welcome to the Thrive Podcast Series. I'm your host, Wayne Swass. Thrive is Monash Health's employee mental health and wellbeing program created for our people, by our people. Our bespoke program explores the themes of validating that working in healthcare is uniquely challenging. Normalising the conversation about mental health, encouraging pause for rest, reflection, and regeneration, and creating safe spaces that empower our people to speak up.
[00:00:32] Wayne: In this series, we talk with some of our people about what this means for them through storytelling and their shared experiences in the hope that that may be helpful to others. In today's episode, I sit down with Kate Page, Chief Clinical Officer from Converge International, who is Monash Health's Employee Assistance Program Provider, to discuss the important role of trust and connection in fostering workplace mental health conversations.
[00:00:57] Wayne: Kate shares practical strategies to building [00:01:00] psychological safety, overcoming barriers to trust, and confidentially supporting a colleague through genuine compassionate care. I really hope you enjoy this episode. I don't think it really Good starting point for the conversation today is why is trust important for building connections that support mental health conversations in the workplace?
[00:01:22] Cate: Because without trust, people won't actually come to you when they're vulnerable. So, The whole issue around mental health and wanting and needing support for it is actually to feel some level of connection in order to share and expose your vulnerability. Otherwise, you can't actually seek the support that you need.
[00:01:44] Cate: And trust is implicit with that and it's, it's, it's an absolute requirement and allows for authenticity. And, uh, it, it also allows for, and, and trust is built through consistency. So if you don't have consistency of [00:02:00] connection, then it's very difficult to have trust and people won't feel, or won't feel safe to be vulnerable and share those conversations.
[00:02:09] Wayne: So trust correlates directly to psychological safety.
[00:02:13] Cate: Absolutely. And this is not about. It's not about needing to be people's friends at work. It's not about needing to have emotional intelligence. It's not about needing to be a pseudo counselor. This is actually just about having a connection that is professionally based, but trust that is professional is just as profound as trust that is personal because it's, it's, it's based on the same principles, which is that worse comes to worse.
[00:02:41] Cate: When I'm vulnerable, this person has my back.
[00:02:44] Wayne: What role does organisational culture play in supporting trust and connection within a workplace environment?
[00:02:51] Cate: I really, really like this question because it's absolutely integral in that, uh, culture is set at the [00:03:00] top and it allows and flows through to the bottom.
[00:03:03] Cate: So if you have a culture where the leaders actually. Role model and practice what they preach to some extent. Um, then you have that, I guess, a ripple down effect, uh, that allows that connection and trust. And what I mean by that, I think fundamentally, and this is leadership 101, but fundamentally, and it goes for everybody to, uh, to some extent.
[00:03:27] Cate: It's being true to what you say. It's also not assuming credit for other people's work. And the third part of that is also being really, really accountable for your own issues and mistakes. If you role model those three things, then that makes and allows trust possible because you're actually coming across with integrity and you're coming across as a real person.
[00:03:51] Cate: Um, and that's what people are drawn to and can connect. So leadership and organisational culture that actually do, does those three things really creates [00:04:00] an environment where people can have conversations.
[00:04:04] Wayne: Correct me if I'm wrong, but you don't have to be a dedicated leader with a title to be able to begin to create and establish that trusting and safe workplace environment.
[00:04:16] Cate: Absolutely spot on. Um, there's a, um, uh, a great saying, and it was actually, uh, said by, uh, he used to lead the Wayside Centre, Graeme Long, and he once said that organisational culture is created by everybody talking positively. Behind each other's backs, which I think just sums it up just beautifully. And, um, I, I, I did make the point about, uh, about leadership because I think that's, um, uh, critical, but you're absolutely right.
[00:04:47] Cate: Every single one of us within an organisation sets the culture. And to be honest, you can actually take that further beyond organisation. And we can talk about society and community and family and friends, particularly, [00:05:00] uh, Uh, at the moment when, um, global events are changing so rapidly, uh, it's actually knowing that what you can control and leaning into that can make a difference to everybody's lives in terms of the people you encounter.
[00:05:16] Cate: So choosing to actually connect. and smile at the person you pass on the street, say hello to the tram driver, say thank you to the person that you actually grab your, your milk and eggs and, and chocolate from. Uh, all of that stuff actually helps build community. So bring it back to the organisational level.
[00:05:32] Cate: That's where what you control counts in terms of changing that culture.
[00:05:37] Wayne: What I really like about your answers so far, Kate, is I'm thinking as you're talking, you don't have to deliberately. begin to invest in role modeling, create that trusting connection within a workplace environment with the aim, I need to do this to create a safe space that allows people to talk to me when they're going through challenging mental health [00:06:00] experiences.
[00:06:01] Wayne: The beauty of this is, if you Invest into those environments, what it does in the event that someone needs to be able to talk or wants to talk to somebody. That's a byproduct of creating a really healthy, trusting, connected workplace environment.
[00:06:18] Cate: Absolutely. That's exactly right. And I think if you actually come from it a bit from the other way, it can feel forced and inauthentic.
[00:06:27] Cate: And there's a, there's a debate and I actually had it with a few of my colleagues last week in terms of what we need. In order to actually create that trust, do we, can we operate with a level of scripting or does it need to be authentically part of who we are? So the words feel more natural, and I think it's actually a bit of both.
[00:06:46] Cate: And I'm a realist in this space. In other words, I actually really, really believe that if we have intentionality and our intention is to actually relate positively [00:07:00] and constructively to our colleagues, then we actually. Can begin to build trust from a script of what we know works. And once again, I come back to that word consistency.
[00:07:13] Cate: If you then maintain that scripting, it'll start to become natural and part of your own voice anyway, but it's the consistency of that scripting that is critical. If you go in and out of it and one day appear to be really supportive and know what to say and the next day when you're having a bad time or you've gotten bad results, whatever it might be, you actually drop it, then that's where you break the trust.
[00:07:35] Cate: So. It's not so much knowing or feeling like you've got to become this different person in order to know exactly what words you need to say in an authentic way. No, learn the script, learn a bit, be true to who you are, but be consistent in how you actually approach things.
[00:07:53] Wayne: I really like that description, Kate, and if I was to simplify that so that I could I understand [00:08:00] it myself in a slightly different way.
[00:08:02] Wayne: The scripting is the instruction manual and you familiarise yourself with that. So you understand the operating, uh, functionality of whatever it is that you need to learn, but then once you have a level of competence and competency, you don't need the instruction manual anymore. You start to overlay your own flavor much like riding a bike.
[00:08:21] Wayne: So I think that that's great advice for people. Are there some common barriers to building trust and connection within the workplace?
[00:08:29] Cate: Uh, absolutely. And it comes back to a little bit of what we've already spoken about and the barriers are, um, I guess, uh, a sense of, of, of, of judgment from others and, and, uh, and that lack of consistency.
[00:08:43] Cate: So I always say to people, find somebody within your organisation who you can go to without fear of being judged. Um, and that might be a peer, but it might be someone completely outside of your team. And by the way, you don't need. Everybody in the organisation to be playing from [00:09:00] exactly the same, um, I guess, style, um, and, uh, and, and, and, and, and scripting to some extent because you need that authenticity.
[00:09:10] Cate: So relying on everybody is not actually the key. Knowing who you can go to, who you personally trust is, is really, really important. And the barrier is, is very much an inconsistent culture that actually says one thing and does another. Um, but it's most profoundly. Um, and organisations that don't stop to listen and actually come with a prescribed sense of, of, of, of what should be happening and judgment comes with that.
[00:09:39] Cate: And I find it, I actually had this is this revelation on the weekend when I was actually looking at. At, at social media. And I was, um, I had, I went through a personal situation last year and I was actually, um, like I found myself liking particular, uh, in, um, videos of wisdom. Like some of the stuff on social media is [00:10:00] wise that you flick through.
[00:10:01] Cate: There's no doubt about it. 20 minutes later, I actually discovered that it was repeating the same type of messaging. I actually realised that. The algorithms were convincing me to take a particular approach based on one or two videos that I had liked, which was completely subjective and lacked all objectivity.
[00:10:25] Cate: It was fascinating. And by the way, that's a totally separate subject and we can revisit that another time. But, um, wisdom on social media can be great, but it's the algorithms give you a false response. In other words, that's what you don't want. In a professional capacity as well. You don't want to go to a human being who has certain judgments and approaches, IE algorithms that actually define their response, uh, that determines what you need to do or forces you on a particular type of behavior because of the judgment or assumptions that [00:11:00] they bring to the mental health space.
[00:11:01] Cate: And boy, there are so many assumptions out there. So. The barrier is to lack an openness to just listen and be with the person in front of you.
[00:11:10] Wayne: Yeah, no, I, I just add to that, that as human beings, we default to the solution, the problem solver very quickly. And in these type of conversations, invariably, that's not the role that the person who wants to talk is looking for.
[00:11:24] Wayne: They're looking for somebody who is trusting, who they're connected with and who's willing just to listen without any judgment. So I think that that's great advice. Kate, how can people begin to foster a culture of, uh, trust and connection slash psychological safety in a workplace environment?
[00:11:39] Cate: By knowing that we're all responders and we're all responders to mental health, we're all humans.
[00:11:44] Cate: So we all go through what I call the human condition, which always means that we will go through mental health episodes throughout our life. That means that, um, Uh, there's, there's not one set of people that experience a mental health condition. So that [00:12:00] means that, um, uh, what is critically important is that you be authentic in that space.
[00:12:05] Cate: And once again, don't think you've gotta be Kate Page or Wayne Schwas or someone else who speaks or, or relates to people in a particular way. You don't have to be extroverted. You don't need to have warm and fuzzy, uh, personality types. Just be true to who you are, but know that actually being consistent and, uh, uh, being open to people's, uh, to people's connection and also leaning into those basic hygiene connection.
[00:12:34] Cate: Behaviors such as hello, goodbye, how are you actually counts because it creates an openness and it's a beginning. It's a baseline that is set. The other thing is obviously setting the baseline through training and awareness of mental health conditions and, uh, and, and similarly, um, uh, Knowing exactly what you need to do in those situations where people might come to you.
[00:12:56] Cate: I think setting that baseline is critical, but [00:13:00] psychological safety is born out of every single person choosing to actually be open to connection rather than closed off from connection.
[00:13:07] Wayne: So, if I was to flip this, for people out there who want to create these type of environments, want to be a supportive colleague or family member, what are some signs that could be an indication that a friend or a colleague is struggling with their mental health?
[00:13:26] Cate: I always say, avoid the long list of symptoms that you might get if you use Google, because it can be confusing. And to be honest, all of us drift in and out of symptoms all the time. Through that connection and trust that we've already spoken about, you know the person. So you're looking for an aberration to their normal behavior that lasts for more than a day or two.
[00:13:47] Cate: And usually we say, longer than a day or two because we're all allowed periods of grumpiness or, um, Mondayitis or whatever it might be. And that's the first sign that someone might be struggling because you can have an [00:14:00] extrovert that actually starts to withdraw, stop saying hello like they normally do, stops having lunch in the lunchroom like they normally do.
[00:14:09] Cate: And you can also have an introvert that actually starts partying hard, starts going out a lot more, starts taking risk taking behavior. In other words, it's any aberration to their norm that might give you an indicator. But look, a very common symptom is withdrawal and actually going internally. And um, I hear it all the time and I've had Um, personal experiences as a leader and a colleague in organisations where people just become very silent and quiet because their internal dialogue is so fast and hard that it's really difficult and challenging for them to get outside of their own thinking and processes.
[00:14:48] Cate: Once again, know the person, have the regular connection so that you can get a sense of when they are acting differently to what they normally do.
[00:14:56] Wayne: So if you've noticed a change of behavior [00:15:00] in a colleague or family member or friend, how can someone approach the discussion that they're concerned in a way that feels genuine and supportive?
[00:15:12] Cate: You can use your own voice. Don't feel as though you've got to adopt my voice or the trainer's voice who teaches you about this stuff or any find your own natural voice. And it's always a great place to start by actually just commenting on the observed behavior because you're not making any assumptions.
[00:15:30] Cate: You're not making any judgment. You're commenting on a factual observation. So simply saying, Wayne, I've noticed you're not coming to the lunchroom as often as you normally do. Just checking in. Is everything okay? So I'm not making any assumptions. I'm just asking the question and I'm providing an opening for you to actually begin to actually share what might be going on or not, depending on where you're at.
[00:15:56] Cate: But that's, what's really helpful, I think, to begin with that really, really [00:16:00] neutral positioning. And it really sets up the conversation where it's about them and not you. And particularly the lack of judgment in the, in the observation that you're making.
[00:16:10] Wayne: Yeah, it reminds me what you've just shared, Kate, and thank you for that.
[00:16:13] Wayne: It reminds me of something that Cath Jeffries, who we spoke to in Episode 1, the Director of Health, Safety and Wellbeing at Monash Health, said and it stuck with me, and that is quiet inquiry. We're not trying to confront the issue, we're not trying to make the person feel uncomfortable, uh, or put them in a situation where the conversation Get shut down quickly, and I just love the analogy of Cath was, I just want to quietly inquire as to the status of the person that I'm, that I'm concerned about and it aligns with the way that you've just framed your response.
[00:16:47] Wayne: So to extend that though, you know, something that I've heard a lot from people over a long period of time is they don't ask questions. Or don't start a conversation because they're worried about what they'll say. Are there some [00:17:00] things that we should avoid doing or saying when we initiate a conversation with a colleague who we're concerned about?
[00:17:07] Cate: Definitely starting with, uh, an opinion or with the word, with the, with the pronoun I, you know, um, uh, I'm frustrated by this, uh, et cetera, et cetera. Um, so yeah. It's, it's really avoiding those points of judgment with the person and actually making an assumption of what you think might be behind the behavior.
[00:17:28] Cate: So commenting on, on perhaps, you know, their withdrawal as being a lack of engagement or their, uh, lower productivity as being their mean slack or avoiding or not caring. Um, so really, really. Uh, uh, avoid or, or be able to reflect on your own thoughts and responses so that you can actually address them before you open up to a conversation with somebody else.
[00:17:51] Cate: I cannot tell you that probably one of the biggest observations I have made of humans in the 25 years that I've been in the mental health [00:18:00] industry is that. We are different and we are so different and we continue to be incredibly different. You know, we're different in terms of our family of origin.
[00:18:10] Cate: We're different to how we've reacted to our family of origin. We're different in our levels of sensitivity. We're different in our susceptibility and vulnerability to addictive behavior. We're different in terms of how extroverted we are versus introverted. We're different in terms of how we are on the neurodiversity scale.
[00:18:27] Cate: Uh, you, you see this in studies of twins and siblings, you know, who have been exposed to exactly the same family of origin and they have completely different types of responses. In other words, that's why there is no room for judgment here and that's why expect And understanding that people will be different in how they behave and respond to events is critical to address your own potential internal judgment and belief systems.
[00:18:54] Cate: If I can do this, you can, I've done the hard yards, so you should be able to do the hard yards. [00:19:00] I've been exposed to this, so therefore you've only been exposed to that. Why aren't you coping better? And it's those internal belief systems that can really present as obstacles and points Judgment that we bring to these conversations.
[00:19:14] Cate: Once again, I stress that people are so different and if we can come from that basis of understanding, then we actually have and bring to these conversations, curiosity and care rather than judgment and belief systems and assumptions that really don't support.
[00:19:35] Wayne: Well, our biases can sometimes do more damage in those conversations than good, and I don't think people enter those conversations with the intention of making it worse, but if we're not aware, uh, and we're not self aware of those biases and our experiences, it can be the only time that person may ever want to talk to somebody else.
[00:19:58] Wayne: So it's a big responsibility. So as [00:20:00] part of that, what role does active listening play in these conversations when you're the listener, Kate?
[00:20:08] Cate: Wouldn't to form part of that, I guess, safety that we spoke about at the beginning. In other words, you're there to listen to their experience, not to pre impose or impose your own solutions to the issue, which is what you referenced.
[00:20:23] Cate: So, you know, there's a really, really kind of almost linear process that occurs with all conversations, not just around mental health conditions, which is having an awareness, as we spoke about, about. Whether or not somebody might be struggling or is acting differently to how they normally do. Then it's acknowledgement of that difference, making a statement about your observation.
[00:20:43] Cate: Um, but then it's actually being able to support them and, and, and be there to actually hear what their experience is and not jump to solutions really quickly. And that forms just the very simple phrases such as, uh, you know, being able to summarise back to them what you've [00:21:00] heard so that they feel understood.
[00:21:02] Cate: Um, and that. Forms part of the acknowledging process. And you can do that even if you feel as though you don't have the skills or you haven't gone through a one day, two day training process, it's simply about listening and then saying back to them what you've heard. So what I'm hearing is that actually you're not coming to the lunchroom as often as possible because you're going through this really difficult event at home.
[00:21:26] Cate: And I'm hearing that that's really hard for you. And that is the acknowledging piece. Can I put a little caveat in, and this is slightly different to perhaps the angle that we've taken so far in the conversation, Wayne, but what's also really, really important is, um, to respect the boundaries as well. If you actually overshare, overcare, overinvest, Take a level of responsibility that actually you can't assume because they're not you and they're a different person and it's a professional connection, not a personal one.
[00:21:58] Cate: You can [00:22:00] actually cause more damage both to them as well as yourself through an overdeveloped sense of dependency that might be created. So keeping boundaries and being really, really respectful of the person's own individual agency to make choices towards their wellness and to make decisions about their wellness is critical.
[00:22:18] Cate: Because I know when we. Particularly those people who do have a level of care and compassion, which is really, really beautiful. It's not about shutting that down. It's just about being careful that that doesn't translate into an overdeveloped sense of responsibility. So having the conversation and having comfort around the conversation is important, but also knowing the parameters around that conversation and the importance of boundaries is also important.
[00:22:42] Wayne: Yeah, it's a really important caveat, which leads me into a two part question. What does somebody do with information that is alarming or concerning that they've just heard from somebody who shared that with them. And secondly, if you're the person who's been asked to [00:23:00] listen in a conversation, what should you do if you recognise it's starting to negatively impact your own mental health?
[00:23:05] Cate: Both of them are great questions, Wayne. The first one is, um, to seek support. Uh, if you feel concerned about what the person has shared with you, but I cannot stress enough the importance of reaching out to somebody else to actually seek support and guidance. And an EAP can do that. That's part of the service that we provide as an EAP, but it's also your HR department at the organisation and or your leader or, or another colleague.
[00:23:34] Cate: Um, but. Your primary role is referring the person to the support that they need in order to get the objective advice that will help them move forward rather than keep them stuck or Or, or, um, make them fall backwards. So establishing and supporting them to seek support is really your [00:24:00] primary role after that acknowledging and listening piece has occurred.
[00:24:04] Wayne: Kate, what advice would you offer people who have recognised that through a conversation it's starting to now negatively impact their own mental health?
[00:24:13] Cate: I think that's where it's really, really important for you to make sure that you're keeping the boundaries and that you're actually looking after yourself equally as you are looking after other people.
[00:24:23] Cate: The risk is that we put ourselves last and we actually, uh, um, think that we have to put others first and be available at all hours at any time, pick up the phone, uh, be that person that they actually call on. It's. critical that you set those boundaries and actually do what is possible from your own wellbeing perspective, but also take a step back and really ensure and build on those, um, baseline levels of mental wellness that we know work, make sure that you have a life outside of work, that you do have a balance, that you are connected to community friends.
[00:24:58] Cate: Um, uh, Or [00:25:00] family that you do exercise, that you do have hobbies. Um, and I'm a great believer that yes, it's important to shut off work, but it's also really important to, um, take a step. Outside of work into your personal life to really formalise and build that up. So it's trying to capture it earlier rather than later and be insistent about what you need to do to stay well, as much as you're insistent about your colleague or the person you're supporting and what they need to do to get well.
[00:25:28] Wayne: A great way to finish a great conversation, Kate. I, uh, there's so much great advice and sage advice that you've shared with us today. I've had the pleasure of getting to know you over the last 12 months. And the thing that strikes me is your passion and enthusiasm, uh, for the wellbeing of individuals and organisations alike, including, uh, the wonderful people that work for Monash Health.
[00:25:49] Wayne: So on behalf of, uh, the Monash Health workforce and the Thrive podcast series, we would love to say a very big thank you. For your, uh, wisdom, your insights and your passion [00:26:00] for mental health and wellbeing.
[00:26:01] Cate: Oh, my absolute pleasure, Wayne. And thank you so much for inviting me.
[00:26:05] Wayne: Hey, thanks for listening. We hope that you found something in this episode that helps you reflect on your mental health and wellbeing and importantly, our culture of care for our people here at Monash Health.
[00:26:14] Wayne: Join us for the next episode as we explore the role of vulnerability and acceptance in supporting teams and individuals in the workplace. We'll see you soon.
