[00:00:00] Wayne: Hello and welcome to the Thrive Podcast series. I'm your host, Wayne Schwass. Thrive is Monash Health's employee mental health and wellbeing program created for our people, by our people. Our bespoke program explores the themes of validating that working in health care is uniquely challenging, normalising the conversation about mental health, encouraging pause for rest, reflection, and regeneration, and creating safe spaces that empower our people to speak up.
[00:00:32] Wayne: In this series, we talk with some of our people about what this means for them through storytelling and their shared experiences in the hope that that may be helpful to others. In today's episode, I sit down with cancer nurse, Olivia Shields, to discuss the importance of creating safe spaces for mental health conversations and why these discussions need to become part of everyday workplace conversations.
[00:00:55] Wayne: I hope you enjoy the episode. Welcome Liv, it's great to have you on [00:01:00] the Thrive Monash Health podcast series.
[00:01:03] Olivia: Thanks Wayne, I'm really excited to be here.
[00:01:05] Wayne: Yeah, I'm really looking forward to having a conversation. You're a leader, you're a career cancer nurse, um, you work with people that Uh, sometimes experiencing their worst day and it's impacting them individually.
[00:01:20] Wayne: And also there are a lot of things that are not only happening within the hospital environment, but they're coming into hospital with things happening in their personal lives and patient care and by extension, the care of families is really important. But today, really keen to talk with you and tap into your experiences.
[00:01:39] Wayne: And some of your leadership styles and the things you do on a really important topic within healthcare and in particular Monash Health, and that is creating safe spaces that really allow and encourage people to be able to speak up in a professional sense. And one of the things that you shared with me, we spoke recently [00:02:00] in the, in the lead up for today, but one of the things that you spoke about was in order to show up for your team, for your patients and their families, it's really important to show up for ourselves.
[00:02:13] Wayne: And I'd like to start with that question. What does that mean for you? And why is that important for you?
[00:02:18] Olivia: Well, Wayne, I think showing up for ourselves is important because it's that old saying, you can't pour from an empty bucket. And the profession that we're in, healthcare and, you know, caring for others, it does take a lot out of us.
[00:02:33] Olivia: Um, but in saying that our own personal lives don't just hit pause because we're suddenly in a workspace. It doesn't mean that everything else that we have going on in our lives disappears from the front of our minds. Um, some people are really good at just knuckling down and getting the work done, but other people, you know, have these thoughts that are playing on their mind day to day while they're still going about their work.
[00:02:57] Olivia: So investing in yourself means that we [00:03:00] can continue to, you know, develop our resilience. manage our stress levels and our anxiety and come to work and just do the best that we possibly can.
[00:03:09] Wayne: Pragmatically, that makes sense. In healthcare, what I'm learning working with the great team at Monash Health is that no two days are the same.
[00:03:19] Wayne: It's dynamic. It's fast paced. Sometimes there, there can be some urgency around that. So the challenge I think, which I'm keen to get your thoughts on is how do people find time to show up for themselves?
[00:03:32] Olivia: In order to find the time to show up for ourselves, we need to make it a priority. We need to actually look at our own self care and addressing our own, uh, mental health as not an option.
[00:03:46] Olivia: You know, we should make it routine. We should make it easy. easy and we should make it, you know, as simple as brushing your teeth every day. If you can do an affirmation for yourself every day, something along those lines, speak to a close friend [00:04:00] or confidant every day as part of your routine. It doesn't have to be life changing.
[00:04:05] Olivia: It doesn't have to be intensive. It's just the consistency of it that I really think is going to have the most effect.
[00:04:12] Wayne: What does showing up for yourself look like? Like, how do you do that? What do you do for yourself? Because for some people, they may never have given themselves permission or an opportunity to think about what that could look like.
[00:04:24] Wayne: So you sharing something could resonate with other Monash health people.
[00:04:29] Olivia: I think showing up for yourself means being in touch. With yourself. So understanding when you are going through a hard time or when, you know, your stress levels are beginning to rise, um, you're starting to feel like in more of a negative frame of mind, if you're able to actually.
[00:04:49] Olivia: Tune yourself into your emotions, then you're able to show up for yourself in a way that you know is going to be effective, and whether that is, you know, seeking [00:05:00] mental health support, adjusting your lifestyle in small ways that are going to have big impacts in the end, for myself, it's Uh, showing up for myself is putting time aside for my hobbies, um, putting time aside to connect with loved ones, putting time aside to address my own mental health and physical health.
[00:05:18] Olivia: Um, but again, not in ways that are unattainable.
[00:05:22] Wayne: What, what I'm hearing in your response, Liv, is there's a Component of self awareness, so paying attention to sensations or indicators physically, mentally, and emotionally as to how you're going through the course of the day, but then you are coupling that with an ability to self regulate.
[00:05:41] Wayne: So hobbies, families, finding family or important people in life and finding time for yourself. So I think that that's a great share with regards to how you can begin to show up for yourself. What are the benefits of you showing up for yourself? How does that help you, not only as an individual, but [00:06:00] importantly, working in healthcare and specifically working with Monash Health?
[00:06:04] Olivia: I think the benefits are going to vary person to person, depending on, you know, what state you Begin making an attempt to show up yourself and to address, um, what you have going on in your own life. I think by showing up for ourselves, we can put a pause on the work things, um, find enjoyment in our lives.
[00:06:27] Olivia: And, you know, once we start to show up ourselves in meaningful ways, we start to reap the benefits. We become more resilient. We show up to work in a different frame of mind. Um, A more positive frame of mind. And then we're able to continue in this really demanding, um, you know, career and, and field of work.
[00:06:49] Olivia: And at the end of the day, we walk away from it going, you know, I've done a really good job today.
[00:06:55] Wayne: You strike me as someone who has made a conscious choice [00:07:00] to. Prioritise themselves and look after themselves and the impact that that has on the patients and their families that you're supporting to be able to support the people that you're leading.
[00:07:10] Wayne: Has it always been that way for you or was there a situation, a moment or an experience where you realised I actually need to start to take care of myself in order to be able to support and take care of other people?
[00:07:22] Olivia: It has not always been that way for me, Wayne. Um, I actually. I have had for a really long time put my own mental health on hold, um, and push it to the back of my mind, which I think is not a, um, that's not a situation that only myself have found myself in.
[00:07:42] Olivia: I think as health professionals, you know, we make the worst patients, um, and. Basically, I started focusing in more on my mental health when my body told me I needed to. Um, so, for a really long time, I didn't feel like I had a safe space at work to talk [00:08:00] about mental health. That was not with this organisation.
[00:08:03] Olivia: That's from years in my past. Um, so, And when I was having a really hard time mentally at work and it showed I was not met with kindness or support or safety. Um, and I think that experience really, really colored my own, um, thoughts about myself, my own mental health, and also my ability to do my job. I really doubted myself and thought, you know, perhaps management is not for me, because that was the feedback that I got.
[00:08:32] Olivia: However, now that I'm with Monash Health, I, um, have been given the grace and the kindness and the safety to express when I'm having a bad day or a bad week. Um, and that's all through the support of the organisation. Um, so, you know, my own triggers, for example, are when I am not sleeping very well, That's when I know that I can, [00:09:00] you know, speak to my boss, I can do a working from home day or I can actually ask for what I need.
[00:09:05] Wayne: Mm. There's a obvious question for me, caught my attention immediately in the beginning of that last answer, you said that I pushed my own mental health needs into the background or I didn't, didn't acknowledge them. A really personal question. Why?
[00:09:24] Olivia: It was for fear of, of letting down the organisation that I worked for.
[00:09:33] Olivia: of letting down my boss and my team and being, um, I guess seen as less effective in my job. Um, there was, I think a real culture of, you know, this isn't, um, this isn't a stressful situation. You're just not handling it properly. And yeah, it was all fear based in the end.
[00:09:58] Wayne: Leads me to a question [00:10:00] that I would I was going to ask towards the end, but I'll ask it now because I think it's appropriate.
[00:10:05] Wayne: With the benefit of the journey that you've been on prioritising your own mental health and what you've just shared, what advice would you go back and offer a version of yourself when you recognise that you didn't, or you felt that you didn't want to let other people that you were working with and working for down?
[00:10:28] Olivia: I would. Go back and tell myself very kindly that that perhaps wasn't my safe space, but that doesn't mean that there isn't safe space available. You just have to find the right people. If you're going to disclose something about your mental health, you have to feel supported. You have to feel like you can trust someone.
[00:10:49] Olivia: Um, and the other thing I would tell myself is to be braver, to be. Brave enough to be my authentic self that now I try to embody, um, [00:11:00] and to remind myself that this is, like I said, not a unique experience. I'm not the only one who's having a hard time and, you know, through opening the door to a mental health conversation, we can lead by example.
[00:11:14] Olivia: And maybe I would find something else out about my team that I could then support them through.
[00:11:19] Wayne: Sage, advice for other people that might be questioning whether or not They think about talking. What I really admire, though, in what you've been able to do is, sadly, sometimes if we are brave enough to speak up about a situation or a challenge, and if the environment isn't safe and supportive and understanding and compassionate or empathetic, that may prevent us from doing that again in the future because we assume, well, that will be the response that I'll always get, so I won't take that risk.
[00:11:48] Wayne: But clearly you've done that, and you've done it reasonably well. So I've enormous admiration for you to do that Liv. The question I've got as a leader based on those [00:12:00] experiences, how do you go about creating a safe space for people to feel brave enough and supported enough to talk about hard things?
[00:12:12] Wayne: Are there some key ingredients that would go into establishing that type of supportive environment?
[00:12:18] Olivia: Yeah, absolutely. I think when we're talking about a safe space and developing a safe space at work, it's, we're not talking about four walls. We're talking about psychological safety. So a place where someone can come and feel comfortable.
[00:12:34] Olivia: I think the way to establish a safe space in the workplace is to be authentic, to be authentic, to be honest and truthful, um, to make sure that people know they can come to you in confidence. And that doesn't have to be a grand gesture that can be showing up in really small ways, um, that do have big impacts.
[00:12:58] Olivia: So, you know, [00:13:00] being Um, team facing walk, I walk around my wards and I check in on my team and I ask how their patient load is today. I ask if they need any help. And by doing that, I'm really hoping to create a culture where they go, you know, Liv actually cares about me and I can go and talk to her if I need to.
[00:13:18] Wayne: One of the things that really resonated with me when we spoke in the lead up to this conversation was something that, uh, I think that a lot of leaders in all industries. Really grapple with and something which you talked about quite candidly was the fact that you're not afraid of being emotional in the workplace in the right context with the right level of support.
[00:13:43] Wayne: And what I'm specifically keen to explore here is in a professional context, leaders aren't expected to be emotional and vulnerable, but you talked about the fact that you're, you're actually comfortable. At certain times, if it's been a difficult day, it's been a challenging experience of showing that [00:14:00] vulnerability.
[00:14:00] Wayne: And I'm talking specifically about crying. What is it about, how does that help you in a professional context? Because whether it's healthcare or any other industry, that's not normal behavior, but I think it's absolutely fundamental to an individual having a human experience.
[00:14:18] Olivia: Absolutely. Well, to be honest with you, Wayne, crying in the workplace is not always my choice.
[00:14:22] Olivia: Uh, it happens. I am a crier when I'm frustrated, when I am not sleeping well, when I, um, you know, am touched by a patient's story or when I'm, you know, just so moved and grateful by the work that my team do even. Um, and I think that by crying in the workplace. It's not something to feel bad about. It's a sign that I'm a human person.
[00:14:51] Olivia: I'm vulnerable, um, but I'm authentic. And, you know, we work in the cancer field. It is really challenging at times. We get to [00:15:00] know patients over a really long time. And crying doesn't mean that you're a weak person or that you aren't in control of yourself. It means that you care. You care really, really deeply.
[00:15:11] Wayne: I'd also like to think that Leaders such as yourselves, who are willing to be vulnerable and show a healthy dose of humanity when things are challenging, and we all experience emotions, I'd actually like to think that that encourages your people. If it's okay for live to be expressive and emotional when something's happening which is challenging, then that's Empowering and inviting other people that are working within your team or teams, that it's okay, this is normal.
[00:15:40] Wayne: You're not going to be judged or there'll be pushback in regards to that type of behavior. In actual fact, we would encourage that because the people that are coming to work to support the patients that you're, you and your team are supporting are human beings. At the end of the day, we're no different to the patients and the families going through different things.
[00:15:56] Olivia: Absolutely. And you know, I'm not saying that every [00:16:00] person in my team has seen me burst into tears spontaneously, but when they come to my office and they're having a really tough time, it might not be work related, it might be, you know, outside work, it might be financial or family or health or pets. Um, so, People burst into tears and their first instinct is to say, Oh, I'm so sorry.
[00:16:18] Olivia: I'm crying. And that's when I step in and try to form that connection, that authenticity and say, you know, don't worry about it. I am a crier. I, you're going to make me cry because you're crying. Like it's, it's not something that you need to apologise for.
[00:16:33] Wayne: Yeah. I think that's a, it's a really beautiful message, Liv.
[00:16:36] Wayne: Thank you. What role does authenticity and vulnerability play in leading mentally healthy teams?
[00:16:42] Olivia: I think authenticity and vulnerability help to create the trust that is needed to lead a mentally healthy team. If you're able to connect with people by being authentic, by being vulnerable, by talking about your own [00:17:00] experiences, um, there's sort of this concept that when someone comes to you with their own troubles, you should never tell them your own.
[00:17:08] Olivia: experiences, you know, it should be all about them, but in order to take, you have to give a little bit. So in order to get people to really open up and feel comfortable talking about something that might be really, really hard, sometimes you have to give a little bit of that and Open yourself up and be vulnerable, um, and be authentic and say, you know, when I am going through a really stressful or anxious time period, I've noticed that this is how I behave.
[00:17:37] Olivia: What about you? You know?
[00:17:39] Wayne: Yeah. It sounds like that shared experiences and they might be slightly different at different times, but it's about relatedness. It's about. The fact that we all go through similar scenarios and we're impacted in similar ways at different times. And I do think that that certainly helps from building a trust perspective and without trust, [00:18:00] it's very difficult to create those safe spaces that allow people to talk about hard things, which I'm keen to unpack with you soon.
[00:18:08] Wayne: The other thing which I've. Reflected on since we spoke recently was the importance and value for you as an individual but also as a leader of self reflection. Why is that important and how does that help you?
[00:18:22] Olivia: I think self reflection in leadership helps me to connect with my team a lot better. Helps me to empathise with my team.
[00:18:30] Olivia: I've been a cancer nurse since the start of my career. So, 13 odd years, I think, um, and the things that my team struggle with, I've probably struggled with at some point. Um, and you know, the, I guess, intensity of the job is not something that I will ever forget because I'm able to think back to my days of, you know, when I was a new nurse, when I went through my [00:19:00] first death of someone that I was really, you know, close to, um, I think.
[00:19:06] Olivia: By being able to reflect on my past, my behaviours, how I felt, I'm able to better empathise and support.
[00:19:14] Wayne: Has your leadership style evolved over time?
[00:19:19] Olivia: Absolutely. It absolutely has. I suppose it has changed as well because of the size of the team that I'm working with. So, When I worked with much smaller teams, I think that my leadership style was very much, I need to fix things for everyone, all the time, um, and, you know, to my own detriment, whereas now I manage a much bigger team, um, I've done A lot of self reflection, a lot of professional development.
[00:19:53] Olivia: And now I understand my role a lot better as a leader in supporting other people. I'm authentic and [00:20:00] motivational, but I don't have to be miss fix it. It's not, um, that's not my responsibility. My role is to be the support, not the fix.
[00:20:11] Wayne: Yeah. I think that's a, uh, A great realisation because, uh, grownups tend to default to problem solving and fixing.
[00:20:20] Wayne: And I would imagine that that's probably amplified exponentially working in healthcare too, because of the nature of the work. Oh, nurses love
[00:20:26] Olivia: to fix. We love it.
[00:20:28] Wayne: Hey Liv, is there a, uh, common barrier in your experiences that prevents people from opening up in a workplace environment?
[00:20:37] Olivia: Yeah, absolutely. I think that, um, historically mental health has not really been talked about in the workplace.
[00:20:43] Olivia: And so there is still a bit of stigma. There's a little bit of fear of what could happen. Um, and because we work in such tight knit groups, you know, no one wants to think that, um, disclosing, uh, when they're struggling with something or their mental health. [00:21:00] No one wants to think that that is going to impact on how they're perceived in the workplace, but I think that that is still a large barrier.
[00:21:08] Wayne: Then a follow up question is, how do we begin to talk about hard things in a workplace environment?
[00:21:15] Olivia: I think talking about hard things in a workplace environment is essential, um, because if we don't let these things out, then we don't understand that we're not in it alone. So, creating a safe space, engaging with our Be Well team can be really, really essential in helping to guide the start of conversations, um, doing some professional development, like leading mentally healthy teams, so that you understand better how you can open up these conversations.
[00:21:47] Olivia: And I think having the awareness When you're going to open a conversation about hard things, about mental health, having the awareness of what your purpose is. Why are you actually [00:22:00] starting this conversation? Is it because you've noticed a behavior? Is it because you're worried about something?
[00:22:06] Wayne: If someone comes to you and asks you in a professional sense, can we talk?
[00:22:13] Wayne: What's your primary role and why?
[00:22:16] Olivia: My primary role is to let them. It's to be there and be there. provide support while they disclose whatever it is that they'd like to disclose. I don't have to have the answer or the fix for them. And I think that it's really essential that I understand that in this conversation, because it means that I can hold space for a person without feeling stressed or anxious about, um, how I'm going to fix it for them.
[00:22:49] Wayne: What advice would you offer to people that, with good intentions. Default to solution or problem solving mode in that moment,
[00:22:58] Olivia: I think that I would tell them to sit on [00:23:00] their hands, take a deep breath, um, and just let people talk. It can be uncomfortable because as healthcare professionals, we want to fix things.
[00:23:09] Olivia: We want to jump in and placate and we don't like people to feel bad or to be, um, you know, going through a really hard time, but we do need to understand our own limitations. And I think that that is also a barrier. To inviting a mental health conversation thinking, Oh, but what if, what if, you know, they come out with something that I'm just not equipped to handle.
[00:23:33] Olivia: You don't have to have all the answers. You just need to be there for that person.
[00:23:38] Wayne: And if I was to flip the script here and ask you if, and when you've been in that situation where you've wanted to speak to somebody else about something that you were. Yeah. Working your way through or challenged with, what did you want from them in that conversation?
[00:23:55] Olivia: I wanted them to listen to me, um, to give me some [00:24:00] grace and, um, you know, usually my motivation, um, again, comes from work performance. It's to, to engage with my boss and say, Oh, if I'm not as good at my job, it's because this is happening. Um, She doesn't need to fix it, but it's really helpful sometimes to be asked if I have what I need.
[00:24:22] Olivia: If I have resources, if I need, um, to book a day off, that means that I can then request what I need. I
[00:24:31] Wayne: think it's, uh, A great message. And you did mention this in our previous conversation, but the value and importance, I think from memory, you recalled a manager who did ask you that, do you have the support that you need at this moment?
[00:24:47] Wayne: And that was a pivotal moment for you. Because you've carried that experience with you since that experience. Yeah, I believe,
[00:24:57] Olivia: I believe I said, I'll, I'll never forget that because [00:25:00] I'd never had that before from previous managers. Um, and just that simple question, do you have what you need? Allowed me to stop, get the perspective.
[00:25:13] Olivia: Take a deep breath and sort of at that point, I said, yes, I actually do, because what I needed was to just let this out, have a cry. Um, and, and now I ask it of my team as well.
[00:25:26] Wayne: Just, it reinforces the value of managers asking a simple question because it's had a profound impact on you and it's now influencing the way that you go about similar situations and conversations with other people that are in that situation wanting to talk to you.
[00:25:44] Wayne: I'm keen to. Ask you, um, well it's not ask you because I'm leading the witness here, but you have a really, you have a really simple, quite unexpected question that you ask people when they come [00:26:00] to you and you, or you recognise that they're struggling. Can you kindly share what that simple question is? And I hope the answer is the one I'm after.
[00:26:06] Olivia: Absolutely. When people come to my office and they're having a really hard time and they're clearly emotional, I let them talk through their problems and then I ask them. Are you sleeping well? Or how is your sleep? Because very, very often, when we go home, when our brains are just constantly running over what we've done for the day, especially those shifts that finish at 9.
[00:26:33] Olivia: 30, you're in bed by 10. 30. You're running through everything that happened. You're not going to get a restful night's sleep. And when you don't sleep well, when you don't have good sleep hygiene, you lose your perspective on things. And that's when your responses can become, you know, a little bit out of contact, out of context.
[00:26:52] Olivia: You're maybe harder on yourself than you normally would be. Um, and yeah, it's a, it's a really great question to ask because from [00:27:00] there we can move to what do you need?
[00:27:02] Wayne: Yeah, what I love about that question, it's such a disarming. question. It's not confrontational. It's not putting the person on the spot.
[00:27:11] Wayne: Uh, it's not invalidated or invalidating or dismissing what they're, it's actually giving them an opportunity of pausing momentarily because that's what I did when you shared, that's the question in our previous conversation. I just found it. It was just not a question that I would expect a leader to ask.
[00:27:30] Wayne: And it really begins for me, it creates the opportunity of just opening up the discussion in a really organic, curious, supportive manner. What have been the responses from people when you ask that question?
[00:27:42] Olivia: Every single time the response is no, I am not sleeping well. I'm really struggling. I've been waking up at four o'clock in the morning or I can't get to sleep or I can't stay asleep.
[00:27:56] Olivia: Um, and then I'm able to connect with the authenticity and [00:28:00] share that when I don't sleep, this is the response. This is how my body acts and how my mind acts. Um, and, and it just, They can just begin to talk from there. Um, because again, it's, it is not an original, um, experience. So many people struggle with sleep hygiene when they're experiencing periods of, um, mental health challenges or stress or anxiety.
[00:28:28] Olivia: you know, anxiety, even if it's not, especially if it's not work related.
[00:28:32] Wayne: Yeah. I would encourage anyone who's listening or watching this episode to just reflect on the fact of how am I sleeping at the moment? What's the impact of that? What are some of the things that I could do? And I think that's a really.
[00:28:45] Wayne: A beautiful question, uh, from where I sit, live, because a lot of people, you know, I've worked in this field and industry for almost two decades, and there are a lot of people in all industries and all [00:29:00] walks of life that think, well, I'm not qualified to have a conversation. But if you ask somebody about Their sleep and their sleep hygiene, it's actually a mental health conversation.
[00:29:08] Wayne: You don't have to be qualified. You don't have to be an expert. You don't have to have necessarily had a lived experience, but the more conversations we can have about those relatable topics, sleep, nutrition, exercise, movement, they're easier conversations to have. And I think everybody's got a capability and a language to be able to engage in those discussions.
[00:29:29] Wayne: So that is a question that I'm going to park in the back of my memory and use that. Uh, next time one of these conversations, uh, takes place. So thank you, Liv. I've got a couple of final questions for you, and I'm going to, I'm going to repeat one that I asked earlier. If today was the first day that you were walking into healthcare, what would your advice be to your younger self today?
[00:29:52] Olivia: My advice to my younger self would be to start developing healthy, Mental health [00:30:00] strategies before you get to the point where your body makes you. Uh, don't ignore things, don't push things off because this is a career that you love. This is a career that you're passionate about and it's a career you want to be in for the rest of your life.
[00:30:16] Olivia: So in order to do that, you need to take care of yourself from the start, not from when everything, you know, the wheels fall off the cart, so to
[00:30:25] Wayne: speak. Yeah, it's great advice. Final question. What's the best thing about working with Monash Health?
[00:30:32] Olivia: The best thing about working with Monash Health is the people, the people from top down, uh, the management are supportive.
[00:30:42] Olivia: My peer colleagues are amazing co workers, um, I love walking through the hallways and being able to say hello to people, being, feeling like I'm not in a silo, like I've got support up, down, sideways, everywhere. Um, it's. It's the most [00:31:00] positive working experience I've had to date and I'm just, I feel so, so blessed and very, very lucky to be working here.
[00:31:07] Wayne: Beautiful way to end a great conversation. Liv, we thank you for your candor and your transparency. Um, I'd also personally like to just acknowledge and thank you for your own authenticity and vulnerability. For me, it's the greatest display of leadership. Because it gives your people permission to start to behave and act in a similar way.
[00:31:26] Wayne: So thank you very much for sharing some of your experiences and your knowledge. And, uh, we hope that we cross paths sometime soon in the corridors of Monash Health.
[00:31:35] Olivia: Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me, Wayne. And to anyone listening, sleep well.
[00:31:40] Wayne: Thanks for listening. We hope that you found this episode helpful and you can pause to reflect on your own mental health and wellbeing and the culture of care that we have for our people here at Monash Health.
[00:31:52] Wayne: Make sure you join us for our next episode, where we discuss the importance of trust and connection. Two key ingredients to help normalise mental health [00:32:00] conversations in the workplace with Kate Page, Chief Clinical Officer with Converge International. Don't forget, you can find all of the episodes on the Thrive intranet page or via the QR codes released in the monthly Thrive communications.
