[00:00:00] Hello and welcome to the Thrive Podcast series. I'm your host, Wayne Schwass. Thrive is Monash Health's employee mental health and wellbeing program created for our people by our people. Our bespoke program explores the themes of validating that working in healthcare is uniquely challenging, normalising the conversation about mental health, encouraging pause for rest, reflection and regeneration, and creating safe spaces that empower our people to speak up.
[00:00:32] In this series, we talk with some of our people about what this means for them through storytelling and their shared experiences in the hope that that may be helpful to others. In today's episode, I sit down with Danielle Gapes, People and Culture Business Partner to talk about how creating inclusive spaces and empathetic understanding can help people to feel safe, to speak up for their needs, and improve communication amongst teams.
[00:00:57] Danielle generously shares her experiences and perspective as a neurodiverse person. And we hope that you take something from this conversation about how embracing the diversity of people helps all of us to be our fullest selves at work. I hope you enjoy the episode. Danielle, I think a really important starting place for our conversation today is to invite you to explain what Neurodiverse means,
[00:01:21] being neurodiverse.
[00:01:22] And what it means to me is that we are all part of a spectrum. So even part of that spectrum, I am just a splice of that spectrum. So what, what, how I communicate my communication styles and my needs can be different to everyone who is on that spectrum. Um, and it is about how we, well, how I process information, how I express myself, how I interact with the world.
[00:01:56] Um, and I may have my strengths, but I also might have my, I call them disadvantages. It's like being, you are not born with every, with that rule book that atypicals or neurotypical, um, seem to have innate in them.
[00:02:16] How do I say this? In a normal world where? Information is shared and information is delivered.
[00:02:24] I am going to assume that that has not always been an easy world for you to participate and be active in because of the sensitivity around the way that you like to receive information.
[00:02:36] And, and what I've done just in the recent years is being very upfront about the fact that I am neurodiverse and I will actually explain to people the way I communicate.
[00:02:50] I'll explain to someone, um, that yeah, I might have a different communication styles or need, and it's allowed for others to recognize the way I process information or the way I'm expressing myself, um, that the fact that I might interact differently and what I've found is they will adapt their approach.
[00:03:19] To see my perspective. Everyone has a different perspective, and when you step into someone else's perception, it becomes the perspective. You understand their perspective, so it gets rid of those assumptions. Because I behave this way or I interpret things literally, or I, I limit my eye contact with someone.
[00:03:43] It's not avoiding it, it is a limited eye contact. Or I might fidget, doesn't show that I'm disinterested. So for me it was explaining to, to the people I work with, this is, this is how I interact with the world. This is how I communicate. And that has allowed an understanding. Also like when I first met, I mentioned I was high functioning, and that in itself is me trying to alleviate your concerns in how different I'm,
[00:04:19] when you talk with people about what it means to be neurodiverse, do they understand what that is to begin the conversation with?
[00:04:27] I think they try to come in with an understanding. But at the same time, and, and I think I've also done probably myself and others, a just justice by trying to put people at ease and say, I am high functioning. High functioning is trying to, to say to someone I. I'm close to normal.
[00:04:47] Well, what is that?
[00:04:48] Anyway?
[00:04:49] Yeah. And so that I think is, is the diff is the difference with neurodiversity and another disability. You don't see it. And because I've spent many decades blending, masking, and mimicking that. A lot of the times, even after I've told you I'm neurodiverse or what my, what my communication style is, or what my quirks are, is that over time you seem more normal and it's almost like this, well, she can be normal,
[00:05:29] but is that your normal or is that someone else's normal?
[00:05:32] That's the normal that I've, I've learned to live with because. When I was me, even from a young age, is that you are isolated, you are picked out, you are weird. You find yourself alone and feeling like you're the only one.
[00:05:58] It saddens me. People have that experience where they are identified or isolated or ostracized.
[00:06:05] You mentioned before, uh, you've blended in, you've mimicked, you've made choices to fit in. How has that impacted you
[00:06:20] for someone like me who, who. My strengths are very, uh, are quite impressive. Uh, so therefore the standards I sit set myself are very high. So when I fail to be normal, I feel that I fail
[00:06:44] normal's coming up a bit.
[00:06:46] I'm interested to understand from your perspective, what, what does that mean for you?
[00:06:51] It's. Adopting a different behavior for, for work, for communication, for, um, how you see the world. It's fitting in with the majority of behavior,
[00:07:07] adopting certain behaviors or styles. Is that authentic to who you are?
[00:07:14] No, because I can't reach them.
[00:07:18] I can't reach them naturally. I can't reach them all the time. Small talk confounds me how to start a conversation has never come natural to me. My entire life, even when I was younger, I would write scripts on what I would see or mimic from others to, to just navigate the daily world, to navigate daily conversations with my peers, where now I don't write, I rarely write it down, but those scripts are now in my head.
[00:07:50] Because starting a conversation, as I said, that rule book, I would watch people and go, how do you do that? How do you start a conversation? How does it come so naturally when for me, it doesn't for me. I can sit there and have no idea how to start a conversation, but then when I do, I can be incredibly literal and that makes sense to me.
[00:08:17] I was even thinking the other day when someone goes, oh yeah, it'd be lovely to catch up sometime to me, I take that literally like, yes, I would like to catch up, but people seem to say it all the time and never catch up with you. And to me, I don't, I don't understand that.
[00:08:32] Does that cause a challenge for you?
[00:08:34] It does, because you start to feel isolated. Mm. You, you seem to, in my life, I just made myself smaller. I made myself blend in. I would mask my confusion because if I voiced it, no one else seemed to understand
[00:08:53] your way of managing your way of coping, your way of dealing in certain situations, if your reserved or blending in your reaction may not be a reflection of what is really happening, it's just the way that you are trying to navigate a situation.
[00:09:14] So. I would assume that sometimes your reaction is interpreted in a very different way, and then people form an opinion or an assumption on you as a person, which is, which actually isn't reflective of you as a person. Has that been your experience?
[00:09:40] It has. Growing up it was you're shy. She's quiet. Where actually I had things to say I wanted to contribute.
[00:09:51] I just didn't know how. But when do I jump into a conversation? Those things don't come natural. Or when do I, we're not, or I might jump into a conversation at the wrong time. So someone might be going, or you're not letting me talk, or she's butting in because I don't know, I don't get those social cues.
[00:10:10] That's not something that naturally, um, is, is aware for me.
[00:10:17] So if you were to offer advice to people in regards to allowing you the space and the freedom to be able to engage in discussion, what advice would you offer people so that they didn't misinterpret or they weren't upset? That you may have interjected because your cues to identify the right spots are different.
[00:10:45] I think one of the, when I have started to be a genuine self and communicate or work or see or explain the world I see and how I see it, I remember once that I had a beautiful manager who tried to, uh, accept. The way I saw the world or the way I communicated and work with me in that. And one day she came up to me and said that how tired she was explaining myself to others.
[00:11:21] How did that make you feel? It
[00:11:22] broke my heart because it felt like I, me, uh, who I was, was impacting someone else in a negative way. Do
[00:11:32] you feel the person that. Said that understood the impact of the message and how it was received?
[00:11:38] No.
[00:11:39] So there wasn't any intention?
[00:11:40] No.
[00:11:41] That would be a really difficult situation to find yourself in.
[00:11:45] 'cause what do you do next?
[00:11:47] You then fall back into the same patterns that you've let to be smaller, to blend more in, to not be heard.
[00:11:58] How does that sit with you though?
[00:12:00] It's not being me. It's not being my genuine self. It's funny, the first time I was ever asked what do I need was actually the ma, my first, my manager here at Monash Health.
[00:12:15] In my entire career, even when I was upfront about being neurodiverse, this was the first time someone said, what do you need to feel safe and comfortable here?
[00:12:26] And what was your response?
[00:12:27] If you know that everything I say or do or see is coming from a good place, that my intent is always gonna be good.
[00:12:38] And if you can work with that, then I'll let you know when I need to fit certain adaptions. Like we got big headphones, um, as just part of being staff. And unfortunately I have a, a sensitivity around my. Ears in my head. So I just said, can I just use normal little old style headphones? And he was like, that's fine.
[00:13:04] And even showing that adaption, it was like, oh, I'm not a nuisance. I'm not a, you don't have to do something special for me. I won't be singled out. Because a lot of us don't wanna be singled out because we're different. And that's why we blend. That's why we make ourselves more.
[00:13:24] I think what's really important in your answer, Danielle, is this particular manager acknowledged you for, you, normalised your experience because that's yours, which could be different to other people, and I think through that process allows you to feel safe and supported, which then gives you permission to be more you.
[00:13:52] Yeah. How did that make you feel?
[00:13:54] Seen,
[00:13:55] and why is that important for you?
[00:13:57] When you feel seen, you feel acknowledged for being a person. And at the end of the day, I think we all just wanna be acknowledged for being just a human being.
[00:14:06] Well, you're a business partner within the organization, aren't you?
[00:14:09] Yeah, I'm
[00:14:11] right.
[00:14:12] You've achieved that level of experience in that particular role at the moment, um, because you're capable. More than capable. And not only are you capable, you've done that in a manner and in a way that has not always been easy. So I think what it illustrates from my perspective is you can have any number of different things that you are living with or managing.
[00:14:41] That doesn't mean that you're not capable and you've proven that.
[00:14:44] And what I found here at Monash Health is that since. Disclosing or when I, when I've disclosed to, to my portfolio group that I'm neurodiverse, but others who have been quite about their own neurodiversity have co have ha we've sought each other out.
[00:15:05] We, we aware and very p very highly aware of each other's strengths, but also aware of each other's disadvantages and we work together. Support each other through our disadvantages.
[00:15:19] I like it. A little team working together, a community.
[00:15:23] That's the beauty I, I have found here at Monash Health is that we WI think people who are neurodiverse are high a sensitive to others who may be at a disadvantage.
[00:15:40] Because, and try to understand where we can help them or understand what their needs are. Because for me it's because no one's tried to do it in the past for me. Yeah.
[00:15:52] Yeah.
[00:15:52] So I make an effort to ensure that I can see someone else's perception. So to ensure that we both accomplish what we need to do.
[00:16:04] Are there some things that.
[00:16:08] People that have no experience or may not have worked with somebody who is neurodiverse, are there some things that you would encourage people not to do?
[00:16:16] The areas that we are at a disadvantage or we need to work harder at, it's not seen them as a weakness or something we are failing at. It's a bit like I have this amazing Gia from day one has, has made me feel acknowledged and seen.
[00:16:38] That, yes, in my communication, I can be literal. I can be factual, and sometimes it comes across as a bit blunt or direct. And instead of pointing that out, she will just return something and say, Hey, the middle bit of this, can you soften it? And that I, to me, is not a criticism. That's just. We just need to change this.
[00:17:03] It's teamwork, right?
[00:17:04] It's teamwork. And the funny thing is she sends me stuff where she goes, um, I've written this, can you soft, can you soften what I've written?
[00:17:13] But isn't that, isn't that like that's such a beautiful relationship to have that your GM will. Encourage you to perhaps reframe something, soften it, but she'll also come back to you from her perspective, asking you for your input.
[00:17:30] So that's a mutually beneficial partnership. Final question, Danielle, is what advice would you offer anyone within Monash Health who is neurodiverse, whatever that means for them, and they have. Not made the decision or questioned whether or not they should step into their authentic self and start to share a bit more about who they are.
[00:17:59] It's hard it anyone who, when you open up about what your.
[00:18:09] What you've been led to, to believe is too hard or you are too different or weird, and this is going to bring you to the, to, to someone's attention in a negative way is it's hard because you are almost, almost weaponizing people against you, and that's how he can feel. But at the same time. What I've learned is that showing your vulnerability allows someone else to approach you in a genuine way.
[00:18:55] Living your genuine self allows you to be free, and with that freedom, what I found is real happiness. That you can find your tribe. You can find people who, who won't just look at you as if you are too hard or you're in the too hard basket, or should be ashamed. You'll find people who want want to be with you, who want to work with you, who wanna hear your stories, who wanna understand you.
[00:19:31] And I think when we. When we're at our true selves, then we can lead a a true change.
[00:19:41] Thank you very much for trusting me to be part of this conversation with you, and thank you very much for being part of the Thrive Podcast.
[00:19:49] Thank you.
[00:19:50] Hey, thanks for listening. For more stories, tools, and support resources, visit the Thrive Resources page on the Monash Health intranet.
[00:19:58] It's your go-to hub for continuing the conversation and accessing the support that you need when you need it. And finally, thank you for being part of Monash Health's Thrive community.
