[00:00:00] Wayne: Hello and welcome to the Thrive podcast series. I'm your host, Wayne Schwass. Thrive is Monash Health's employee mental health and wellbeing program created for our people, by our people. Our bespoke program explores the themes of validating that working in health care is uniquely challenging, normalising the conversation about mental health, encouraging pause for rest, reflection and regeneration, and creating safe spaces that empower our people to speak up.
[00:00:32] Wayne: In this series, we talk with some of our people about what this means for them through storytelling and their shared experiences in the hope that that may be helpful to others. In today's episode, I sit down with Cath Jeffries, Director of Health, Safety and Wellbeing, to discuss the genesis for Thrive and the program's aim of creating safe spaces that empower our people to have mental health conversations as part of everyday discussions.
[00:00:58] Wayne: I really hope you enjoy today's episode.
[00:01:00] Cath Jeffries, welcome.
[00:01:02] Cath: Thank you, Wayne. Great to see you.
[00:01:05] Wayne: Yeah, it's good to see you. We've, uh, been doing a lot of work over the past few months and, uh, one of the important things that we've been working on is a mental health reset across Monash Health. I think it's a great opportunity to Speak with you about a range of different things and I guess the starting point Cath would be We know what the Thrive program is about but there'll be a lot of people across Monash Health that won't know what it's about.
[00:01:33] Wayne: So a great starting point would be what is Thrive and what was the genesis for the program?
[00:01:38] Cath: Yeah, that's a great question Wayne. So, look, we've been thinking about this for some time, and 18 months ago, we engaged Center for Corporate Health to conduct a psychosocial hazard survey of the organisation. Um, they spoke with 200 of our people in little groups and also in interviews, um, and came back [00:02:00] with some really great feedback for us.
[00:02:02] Cath: Um, we also looked at our annual people matter survey where our people tell us how they're feeling. We talked to our Be Well psychology team who are working with people, um, at an operational level to really try to understand what are the key sort of, um, great, great things that we're doing, but also what are our challenges.
[00:02:21] Cath: We, we got some great and very rich, um, information out of all of that work. And we know that, um, there's some really awesome stuff happening at Monash Health and that people are very passionate about helping others and find this sort of healthcare work very rewarding. Our team members are highly supportive of each other, um, and that we're all really proud of the wonderful work and how we help people every day.
[00:02:44] Cath: So there's some really good stuff going on.
[00:02:46] Wayne: What has really struck me with people that work within healthcare and in particular Monash Health is the passion they have for helping the patients and by extension the families and also by extension their colleagues within their [00:03:00] respective teams. And I don't want this to be interpreted as a negative, but they're not as good as at prioritising themselves.
[00:03:07] Wayne: So the Thrive program and a lot of work that we're doing together is shifting some of that focus to really be able to encourage Monash Health employees across all areas to be able to prioritise themselves. Because if. We're healthier, happier and more engaged. That leads to better outcomes more often than not with patients and their families, the people that you're serving.
[00:03:31] Cath: Absolutely. And as we know, there's no health without mental health. Um, and what we are hearing from our people is that yes, there are some challenges with that. So some of the things that we heard were that people feel impacted by the occupational violence and aggression that is unfortunately present in many of our workplaces.
[00:03:51] Cath: Um, some of our new graduates feel unprepared for the sort of emotional trauma that they may see sometimes. People told us that not always do they [00:04:00] feel safe to speak up, that they feel that it may affect their professional standing and reputation. Others said, you know, how can I look after my own well being when I'm so overwhelmed at work and I've got so much to do and it's so full on.
[00:04:13] Cath: Sometimes I feel sad and I can't switch off when I go home. Um, others said that they just don't stop and take the time to regenerate. Um, and that some days they find their jobs really tough because we're working with people who are often having the worst time of their life and they don't always react the way, the way that they would normally.
[00:04:33] Cath: So look, there are some genuine challenges from a mental health perspective, um, working in health.
[00:04:39] Wayne: The program has four key themes. Would you mind sharing and talking to the four key themes that sit within the Thrive program?
[00:04:48] Cath: So look, we looked at all of this feedback and we talked to our psychology experts and workshopped.
[00:04:54] Cath: What were the key themes about people? What are people telling us? And what [00:05:00] we heard. Was that there were four themes that we needed for a reset and the first is validate, to validate that working in health can be uniquely challenging and some days it's really difficult. We want to normalise the conversation about mental health and well being and de stigmatise being able to talk about mental health and well being, um, in an environment where it is safe to speak up, um, because we hear from our healthcare workers that they often put themselves last, they put their patients first.
[00:05:31] Cath: And they don't speak up. I hear that over and over again. And the, the other clear message that we need is, it's so important to pause for rest and recovery, and also pause to reflect. You know, it's amazing what you can Um, think of and how you can help yourself if you give yourself some space to think. So they're the four key themes that we have, validate, normalise, pause and speak up.
[00:05:55] Wayne: And again, the experiences that I've been part [00:06:00] of, the challenge for healthcare workers in particular, your people, is finding the time to pause. Because it can be quite a unpredictable, sometimes challenging and somewhat chaotic workplace experience because of the nature of the work. So fully supportive of the program, absolutely passionately committed to the four key messages, but there's some challenges in changing the attitudes and cultural attitudes towards mental health within the workplace.
[00:06:30] Wayne: What do you think the biggest challenge is to change? People's attitudes and create a very supportive, open, trusting and respectful workplace environment that empowers people to prioritise their wellbeing.
[00:06:43] Cath: I think it's time to start talking about it. You know, we really need to stop and talk about mental health and wellbeing.
[00:06:50] Cath: So it becomes a normal part of conversation. And that it's okay not to be okay and, and to actually, um, create a trusted [00:07:00] relationship with somebody whereby you feel that you can talk about what's going on for you. And equally, we need to empower our leaders to be able to lead a mentally healthy workplace.
[00:07:10] Cath: Um, and to know how to respond if somebody does choose to share, um, a mental health challenge that they have. So the real focus is on the leadership capability to, to sort of lead this space, um, and for people to feel safe and okay, and to know how to talk about their mental health.
[00:07:30] Wayne: If I was to ask you, which I will, your definition of stigma and why that's important, because that was one of the first things that you shared when we first started working through what this might look like.
[00:07:42] Wayne: Why is it really important to address and tackle stigma within?
[00:07:47] Cath: Drawing on my own experience as a nurse, I think that this has been a culture in health for many years that, um, you feel that your profession may be, [00:08:00] uh, or your professionalism rather might be tainted if you admit that you're not. coping well.
[00:08:07] Cath: Um, and just from talking to people in wards, in kitchens, in support services, I just really get a sense that our healthcare workers put themselves last and they put their patients first. So, and that's okay. I mean, we want to deliver the best quality care that we can, but we also need to look after ourselves to be able to actually do that.
[00:08:29] Wayne: Well, not only that, but if people are finding life challenging, then when they finish their shift, That's going home with them. That's also potentially impacting their relationships with their partners, their children, their families, their friends. So it has the potential of impacting every important person or group of people that are included in your life.
[00:08:52] Wayne: So it's not just about. Supporting the individual and collective wellbeing of people so they can be the best version of themselves at work. But [00:09:00] what I hear consistently is allowing our people to be able to disconnect and shut off from work when they go back home and enjoy and participate in all of those other personal important relationships.
[00:09:10] Cath: It's so important. And that's how we regenerate, isn't it? Through our connections with people at home. people that we love and the fun that we have, um, to be able to come back and kind of cope with another day and give the best version of ourselves, as you say, and give the best to our patients. We really have to make sure we're looking after ourselves as well.
[00:09:32] Wayne: What would you say to any leaders that hear this conversation or employees, anybody that works in the organisation and is reluctant? To really embrace the program and what the program's trying to achieve.
[00:09:48] Cath: I'd say that it's just about being human beings and that sometimes we can make mental health into a bigger thing than it actually is.
[00:09:56] Cath: You know, sometimes it's just about develop, well not [00:10:00] sometimes, it's always about developing connection with people, a trusted connection, um, so it's safe to be able to share with each other. Yeah, and I think that, um. If you do share something personal with somebody and you are able to be vulnerable, it strengthens the connection that you have.
[00:10:20] Cath: Not only does it help the person who wants to talk about a challenge potentially, but it actually shares the bond between you. And I know this from experience, just levelling with each other has an amasing impact.
[00:10:36] Wayne: Well, it leads in quite nicely, Cath, we obviously talked prior to today's conversation and without pardon me, identifying, um, a personal friend, you talked about that exact situation playing out with a dear male friend of yours, with regards to him disclosing.
[00:10:58] Wayne: Some challenges with [00:11:00] you about things that he'd been dealing with. Are you able to share some of that?
[00:11:05] Cath: Yeah, sure So this is a guy I've known for quite some time a friend and you know He has had a lot of challenges in his life But you know was big burly male that would never ever talk about it Ever and I hope that one day that he would because I could see what was happening for him And then absolutely out of the blue, I got a text from him one day, um, and he said, um, I've actually got the text here, I might read it because I just found it, it blew me away when I received this text.
[00:11:35] Cath: He said, apologies, I didn't buzz you last week. Long story short, I've had a bit of a rough few weeks and actually came to the realisation that I'm battling a level of depression and I've run out of things that make me happy. And as hard as it actually was, I sought some professional help. Never thought I'd be that guy, you know.
[00:11:52] Cath: Um, but eventually only so much water can build up behind the dam wall wall before it spills over. Um, and as you know, I'm very [00:12:00] good at talking about my feelings upside down, emoji, smile, not.
[00:12:06] Cath: Um, and then he said, um, I'm keen to chat to you as I know you would understand. Um, and I can tell you, I sat in my car for 20 minutes shitting myself before I went to my first appointment last week. Anyway, I've broken ground. Uh, just the power of that message, I, as I said, I was really blown away and, um, my immediate thought was, Oh my God, what can I help to, how can I help here?
[00:12:34] Cath: You know, what can I do to help you? What should I say? Um, you know, I went into solution mode in my head before I, I actually had a conversation with him because I rethought that.
[00:12:45] Wayne: Well, first of all, uh, that's a beautiful message. And it talks to. I'm assuming it talks to the level of trust that he had in you to share that message.
[00:12:55] Wayne: Showed quite a bit of vulnerability too in that share. Um, what was [00:13:00] it about reflecting on the fact that you immediately thought you needed to go to solution mode, but then having an ability to recalibrate that and then look at the opportunity of how you might go about supporting him without necessarily trying to fix the problem for him.
[00:13:17] Cath: Yeah. So I guess I understand that. If you go into solution mode, or if you go, yeah, I know that situation, that happened to me too. You shut down the conversation. And I was very aware of how brave that initial text was and that I didn't want to shut down that conversation. I wanted to allow him to keep talking, um, because I knew how hard it was to say that in the first place.
[00:13:42] Cath: And I found that, um, using that sort of reflective conversation really helped, you know, that must be really tough for you, um, wow, that, that, you know, um, that must have been the hardest thing admitting that you wanted to go and talk to someone. And then I found that, that [00:14:00] those sort of open questions kept the conversation going and alive.
[00:14:05] Cath: But I think more than ever, I was aware of that because I understood how hard it was to, to raise it in the first place. And I didn't want to stop the opportunity. I wanted him to keep going so he can explore this and get support with this.
[00:14:18] Wayne: How is, how is the relationship since? It's
[00:14:21] Cath: kind of like brought us a lot closer as friends, you know, because that vulnerability with somebody.
[00:14:28] Cath: Um, you know, it takes a strong leap of faith, people, it just brings you together and, and then the conversation can further evolve from there because you develop that, because there was a lot of trust placed in me to tell me that. Absolutely. And I respected that. Um, and so then it just builds the conversation further.
[00:14:49] Wayne: When somebody's prepared to be vulnerable, that's, that's, that's quite courageous because they're showing a side of themselves that they may not have shown the person in this case, you, that they've [00:15:00] reached out to or anybody else. And I think it's really important that if we're the recipient of the invitation to listen, it's really important that we respect the vulnerability.
[00:15:09] Wayne: We're not dismissive or judgmental. And it sounds like you were very good at reciprocating the level of vulnerability by acknowledging the courage it took for your friend to reach out in the first place.
[00:15:23] Cath: Yeah, that's what I tried to do because I realised it was a really hard thing for him to say those few words.
[00:15:30] Cath: And that was very courageous. Um, so yeah, it was all about the connection and trust.
[00:15:37] Wayne: What would you say to people that might be listening to this? Um, and I hear this a lot, Cath. I've worked in this field for a long time. People are really concerned about, I don't want to say the wrong thing. I might, I might, I might upset them.
[00:15:53] Wayne: I don't know what to say. What would your advice to those people that are concerned about a friend, but they. [00:16:00] Choose not to open up a conversation because they're worried about what they say.
[00:16:04] Cath: So I guess if the, the, the shoe's on the other foot and it's not somebody coming forward. It's someone who you have observed to be perhaps acting out of character or you know, they just don't quite seem themselves.
[00:16:18] Cath: Um, it, it's not about knowing what to say. It's actually, and I know this sounds corny, but it is actually just checking in and saying, are you okay? It might be, you know, do you want to go for coffee? Um, can we go for a walk? Um, how's everything going for you? You know, I've, I've noticed that, um, you haven't quite seen yourself lately.
[00:16:39] Cath: Um, actually this happened to me once. I haven't shared this story with you, Wayne, but I've got an example of this. So there was a time about 10 years ago. That my boss took me aside and said, Cath, is everything okay with you? I said, yep, fine. Everything's fine. And she said, because you seem, um, she actually would use the [00:17:00] word aggressive.
[00:17:00] Cath: She said, you seem a little bit, a bit aggressive and a little bit snappy at the moment. You know, is everything okay? And with that, I burst into tears and I said, I'm actually going through a divorce at the moment. And I didn't want to talk about it. Um, but that is what is going on for me. And then she opened up the conversation and cause I was trying not to tell anybody, I thought it was embarrassing and nothing to do with work.
[00:17:22] Cath: But of course those sorts of things do impact work because it impacts how you feel. And so then she really supported me. And it was really helpful.
[00:17:32] Wayne: And thank you for the share, Cath. It's interesting because we do everything we can to pretend that we're all okay. And, and there's a significant amount of investment.
[00:17:42] Wayne: Um, intellectually and emotionally to keep that facade up, but that question from your manager allowed you to begin to open up and start to share a bit about what was going on. Did that experience help you with when your friend reached out to you?
[00:17:57] Cath: Yeah. Cause I, I guess I [00:18:00] understand, um, the value in feeling supported.
[00:18:03] Cath: by somebody if you're going through a challenging time. And I guess I've got a lot of very good friends and we look after, we support each other. So I understand the value of that. And yeah, so that did help me to know that that might help him.
[00:18:19] Wayne: So I think it humanises our experiences, doesn't it, Cath? At the end of the day, we're just humans, aren't we?
[00:18:23] Wayne: Yeah, correct. And we go to work and we have bad days and we have challenging times. And, um, I think that, you know, these conversations are really important to give people permission to start to think about talking about mental health and wellbeing within the workplace. Um, I'm keen to get your thoughts, Cath, with regards to people that might be sitting there wondering, okay.
[00:18:45] Wayne: I understand this and I can see the value in being part of these conversations or initiating them or being the listener in a conversation, but people might be struggling with, okay, how do I go about creating a safe space that might [00:19:00] allow people to connect and talk about these really important topics?
[00:19:03] Wayne: What would your advice be?
[00:19:05] Cath: It, it could be as simple as going for coffee. It could be as simple as going for a walk, um, or, and you know, people may not feel safe to speak up initially, it may take time. So it's that sort of continued gentle checking in, um, not prying, but more of a checking in approach, I would say.
[00:19:25] Wayne: You had a beautiful term. Quiet inquiry, what does that mean?
[00:19:31] Cath: So quiet inquiry is, it's sort of a, for me, it's a, it's a gentle approach because if you're trying to help somebody lift the lid on a problem, they may feel threatened, um, and they may not feel ready to talk about it yet. Um, and the quiet inquiry and the continued sort of quiet inquiry, but not in a, an annoying Trust, and perhaps curiosity from the [00:20:00] person who's struggling to think, Hey, I must be coming across in a certain way because she's noticed it and she's kind of onto me.
[00:20:07] Cath: And um, I, I feel that she cares about me.
[00:20:11] Wayne: Yeah, I love the curiosity approach and I, I've adopted the quiet inquiry phrase. I think that's really, it's a, it's an eloquent way of framing the conversation. And also love what you said earlier, Cath, and that is you don't, you didn't want to shut the conversation down.
[00:20:29] Wayne: You actually wanted to open that up. And I think open ended questions do a wonderful job of. Giving people permission to talk about that in a relaxed way. You also mentioned something which I use myself, and I think it's a really important skill to have, and that's reflective listening. What does that mean?
[00:20:45] Cath: Um, so an example of that, Wayne, would be what I just heard you say, was you asked me about reflective listening. Um, so it may be, you know, um, that you, you've disclosed something to me. [00:21:00] And I might say to you, you know, I hear from your, your voice that that's really painful for you or, um, what I hear is that this is a really tough time for you.
[00:21:11] Cath: And I think that by saying that sort of thing, it only encourages further conversation because then people feel heard and maybe more likely to disclose further and share more.
[00:21:23] Wayne: And would it be fair to say that one of the main important things that people want someone to do is just allow them to be heard and not necessarily looking for us to fix the problem or solve it, but somebody who's willing to hold that space for me in a really supportive, non confrontational way, and if I feel heard, there's a level of value in that.
[00:21:48] Cath: And validation. So if people hear you, you feel validated, don't you?
[00:21:54] Wayne: Yeah.
[00:21:55] Cath: Um, and if people acknowledge back to you what they've heard, again, that's a [00:22:00] validating sort of conversation.
[00:22:02] Wayne: Well, it picks up the key themes. It's normalising the experience based on the person's experience. We're creating an opportunity for them to pause and reflect, and we're giving them the opportunity in the safe environment to be able to speak up.
[00:22:15] Wayne: Um, couple of final questions, Cathy. You also mentioned the importance of paying attention. What are you looking for when you're paying attention to other people that you care about?
[00:22:25] Cath: Well, you, you, and this goes for your, um, colleagues as well. You get to know each other on a level that you kind of know when people are having a good day and a bad day, because you know them.
[00:22:37] Cath: And you pay attention to, uh, behavior that may suggest that things aren't going well for them. So that might be change in behavior. All of a sudden the person who's on time all of the time is now always half an hour late. Or the person that is usually the one cracking gags and having a laugh just doesn't seem to be doing that.
[00:22:58] Cath: Or as [00:23:00] per my example, a bit more snappy than usual. Or, um, looking tired and exhausted and saying they're not sleeping, you know, there's lots of different behavioral changes that may suggest that somebody is going through a tough time. And I guess it's just being alert to that when you know people.
[00:23:16] Wayne: And if you notice a subtle change of behavior in somebody that you care about at work, such as a colleague, what would your advice be?
[00:23:24] Cath: Again, that sort of gentle inquiry, you know, I've noticed. that you're always here at seven, but now you seem to, you can't make it until seven 30. Is everything okay? But making a gentle observation about, about why, um, you're checking in or, you know, I saw that you went through that. Um, nasty incident of violence, you know, and you're okay, you know, um, I see that you've had some employee assistance counseling.
[00:23:52] Cath: I can see that, you know, that we know the Be Well team are here, but how are you actually going? How are you feeling about that now? Um, it's, it's [00:24:00] just opening up the conversation, isn't it?
[00:24:02] Wayne: Yeah. It's a quiet inquiry approach without it being confronting. Two final questions, Cath, uh, why is from a personal and professional point of view, Why is mental health important to you?
[00:24:13] Cath: Mental health is really important to me, um, so I feel great and I can be my best. And I think it's important to have a toolkit. I often talk about having a toolkit of things that I rely on on the days that aren't great. Um, Because, you know, there's such a plethora of information out there, there's mental health and wellbeing, resilience, you know, it can become a little bit overwhelming, but it's important for me to know what makes me feel good and how I can self correct or how I can talk to people.
[00:24:49] Cath: Yeah, so I can be my best self. And from an organisation perspective, you know, imagine if we could lift the mental health and wellbeing for people, what if, and you know, we could be even [00:25:00] better than we are and culturally will be, can be even better than we are. So, um, It's, it's really important to make Monash Health the best place we can, um, and to make ourselves the best people we can be.
[00:25:13] Wayne: Well, the value and benefit of you being the best version of yourself permeates its way to every other important piece, person you're engaging with. So it's, it's, it's an extension when you're healthy and well that other people get the value of that. Last question, Cath, and this is unsolicited, but I think it's a great way to finish the conversation.
[00:25:30] Wayne: What's the best thing about working for Monash Health?
[00:25:32] Cath: Oh, look, for me, I'm absolutely passionate about our health care workers who I just think do the most amazing job, day in. day out, and if we can make their life just a little bit better, then we've done a great job.
[00:25:48] Wayne: Cath Jeffries, thank you. Thank you, Wayne.
[00:25:52] Wayne: Thanks for listening. We hope that you found this episode helpful, and you can pause to reflect on your own mental health and wellbeing journey and the culture of [00:26:00] care that we have for our people here at Monash Health. Make sure you join us for our next episode where we explore the importance of creating safe spaces.
[00:26:08] Wayne: for mental health conversations with Cancer Nurse, Olivia Shields. You can find all the episodes on the Thrive intranet page or via the QR codes released in the monthly Thrive Communications.
